Why do we have a negative view of humanity?

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Musicc
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09 Aug 2012, 12:53 am

People always say humans are violent, things never change, people will always be corrupt etc.

But isn't it obvious that things have changed for the better? 5oo years ago, no human rights, no freedom, endless wars, bigotry, superstition etc. today, science has replaced religion, human rights for all, anti war ideologies are in place, the fight against bigotry continues.

My point is, all these bad things may not have vanished but at least humans are more awake and they fight against ideas which dehumanize us. Not long ago, ethnic minorities and women were not considered equal. Today, such an attitude will make you look abnormal. Isn't this itself enormous progress that the human race has made?



enrico_dandolo
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09 Aug 2012, 1:29 am

Human rights and freedom have no sense in a non-individualist society. Because we have them and like them does not mean people in the past were less happy because they didn't.

Science is just a new authority. I don't mean to say that it is wrong, because that is something I do not (and cannot) believe, just that I accept its conclusion by authority. I know it uses a good method, the value of which I understand and accept, but in the end, I basically accept blindly almost all that is said by a scientist, unless another scientist says it's wrong. And many don't even know the scientific method. If I find something wrong with a bit of scientific research, I can usually assume that I don't know enough about it. Generally, of course, it is true. It isn't necessarly so impressive a step up for reason. Besides, there is no necessary dichotomy between science and religion.

Peace? The 20th century was basically constant warfare. The first decade of the 21st is not showing much improvement. Also, the "endless" nature of warfare in the past is completely overblown and exagerated.

About bigotry, you should notice it is still going on. Also, probably the worst period for discrimination was the past two or three centuries, ours included. Before then, of course people from certain groups didn't necessarily like people from groups (be they ethnic, religious, etc.), but they generally just lived separately if it was a problem, in which case they tended not to interact with each other if at all possible and each managed its own affairs by itself. That's not what I call a haven of tolerance and multiculturalism, but hey, group A is satisfied, group B is satisfied -- fine with me. Periodically, some communities might be explicitly asked to integrate or be exiled, but then, we do the same thing, only implicitly and with the added choice of discrimination. When they didn't live in mutual isolation, after a few generations and mixed marriages, those groups to merge. Where's the problem?

The biggest problem with regards to bigotry came with, on the one hand, democracy and its tendency to enforce one law and one rule on everyone, even if they don't want to, and on the other hand, Atlantic slavery, which combined the subhuman aspect always present in slavery to the indentifiable traits of Black slaves. In Ancient Rome, for example, there were both (very many) slaves and (very few) Black people. The (very few) Black people were just exotic. The slaves were not really discriminated against, they only had an ecomonic function and lived under legal restraints as such. Slaves were often freed, and being a freedman's son was not a stain and incurred no legal restriction. Compare/contrast African slaves and what they became after freedom.

The only point I will grant you (even though you didn't mention it) is that survival has become easier.

What you say is just an optimist's mixture of the Enlightenment's idea of linear progress and of biased comparison between modern and past life, using a very bad grid of analysis.



ruveyn
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09 Aug 2012, 5:35 am

What do you mean "we"?

If one keeps expectation low, humanity is just fine.

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Declension
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09 Aug 2012, 5:44 am

It's pretty obvious that things are getting better in certain specific ways. However, there are several gigantic problems facing humanity that we have never faced before. Anthropogenic climate change, weapons of mass destruction, overpopulation, increased potential for large-scale brainwashing. Notice that all of these problems are side-effects of things getting "better".

I am cautiously optimistic that humanity will navigate around all four of these problems, but many people could die in the process. It isn't so hard to believe that the biggest instances of mass murder haven't happened yet.



Stauffenberg
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09 Aug 2012, 6:25 am

Declension wrote:
increased potential for large-scale brainwashing. Notice that all of these problems are side-effects of things getting "better".


I say that the large-scale brainwashing is already happening... Just watch an evening worth of TV... the books/web material people read... :twisted:

I'm both worried and hopeful. It seems its harder than ever for those who are growing up to their 20s, being bombarded as they are by all the silly nonsense from false ideals (body/material wealth/becoming famous/etc) to false religion (dogmatism - telling others how they should live.Condemnation), but I firmly believe that you can't keep down the individuals with potential.



HisDivineMajesty
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09 Aug 2012, 7:33 am

You could say raising children is brainwashing. Children are raised to a certain idea by their parents. They don't need mass media for that - just their first word. And then they're taught how to read, but not only that - they're usually taught what to read, how to act and what their social environment thinks is acceptable. Eventually, it's not a forced idea anymore - they start believing in it. At that point, the first 'brainwashing' is complete.



Stauffenberg
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09 Aug 2012, 7:37 am

I agree. Then you need to spend a lifetime undoing yourself. 8O



Musicc
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09 Aug 2012, 9:14 am

HisDivineMajesty wrote:
You could say raising children is brainwashing. Children are raised to a certain idea by their parents. They don't need mass media for that - just their first word. And then they're taught how to read, but not only that - they're usually taught what to read, how to act and what their social environment thinks is acceptable. Eventually, it's not a forced idea anymore - they start believing in it. At that point, the first 'brainwashing' is complete.


True but the difference is that at least this 21st century world gives us an option to say no to all this. In other ages, even this basic choice was missing.



HisDivineMajesty
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09 Aug 2012, 9:29 am

Musicc wrote:
True but the difference is that at least this 21st century world gives us an option to say no to all this. In other ages, even this basic choice was missing.


No. This century does not give us that option. The very idea that you believe in those options is a result of how you've been raised. If you believe from an early age that homosexuals should have rights, that's because the people around you believe that. By the time you reach adulthood, you don't just accept that because the adults around you will punish or discipline you if you don't - you do that because your mind has been conditioned to believe in it. That's what makes people naive who think you can completely change a person. After 18, most of his moral and social code have already been finished and internalized.



Stauffenberg
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09 Aug 2012, 9:36 am

HisDivineMajesty wrote:
No. This century does not give us that option. The very idea that you believe in those options is a result of how you've been raised. If you believe from an early age that homosexuals should have rights, that's because the people around you believe that. By the time you reach adulthood, you don't just accept that because the adults around you will punish or discipline you if you don't - you do that because your mind has been conditioned to believe in it. That's what makes people naive who think you can completely change a person. After 18, most of his moral and social code have already been finished and internalized.


I actually grew up in an environment that thought homosexuals should have very few rights and I grew out of that stupidity. Although, it wasn't until I was somewhere around thirty. On the other hand, I guess I'm not Joe Average...