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dkbkt
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07 Oct 2012, 12:56 pm

"I" did not exist before "I" was born.

"I" suddenly became this conscious being.

When "I" die, "I" will not exist.

The traditional physicalist perspective is that after death, there is no subjective consciousness.
Or to put it plainly, "After this life, we will experience no more."

However, I question this. After all, once "I" die, doesn't that put "me" in the same position as "I" was prior to birth, i.e. nonexistence?

Nonexistence --> birth/death --> Nonexistence

Could the cycle repeat like the following:

Nonexistence -- birth/death --> Nonexistence --> birth......?

Could "we" look forward to a random continuation of consciousness as different beings (I quite dread this possibility 8O 8O....)

After all, what preceded "my" birth was nonexistence. Nonexistence will follow my death. Why wouldn't the cycle repeat (on a subjective level that is...)?

This is not an argument for reincarnation with souls or karma. It presupposes a naturalist universe. Just that on a subjective level, perhaps "we" repeat the birth/death cycle endlessly, as different beings, with no connection or link between existences.

Google:
General Subjective Continuity
Existential Passage

There are some philosophers that originated the above concepts, and both seem intriguing. I actually dread this possibility and fear it is very real, although I'm an agnostic and have no idea what, if anything, follows death.

Your thoughts?



ruveyn
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07 Oct 2012, 1:01 pm

dkbkt wrote:

Your thoughts?


Once each of us was not. Then each of us was and is. And in due course each of us will no longer be.

Since we are but blips and ripples on the surface of space-time death is nothing to fear.

The world will go on even if each of us does not.

ruveyn



GGPViper
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07 Oct 2012, 3:19 pm

dkbkt wrote:
"I" did not exist before "I" was born.

"I" suddenly became this conscious being.

When "I" die, "I" will not exist.

The traditional physicalist perspective is that after death, there is no subjective consciousness.
Or to put it plainly, "After this life, we will experience no more."

However, I question this. After all, once "I" die, doesn't that put "me" in the same position as "I" was prior to birth, i.e. nonexistence?

Nonexistence --> birth/death --> Nonexistence

Could the cycle repeat like the following:

Nonexistence -- birth/death --> Nonexistence --> birth......?

Could "we" look forward to a random continuation of consciousness as different beings (I quite dread this possibility 8O 8O....)

After all, what preceded "my" birth was nonexistence. Nonexistence will follow my death. Why wouldn't the cycle repeat (on a subjective level that is...)?

This is not an argument for reincarnation with souls or karma. It presupposes a naturalist universe. Just that on a subjective level, perhaps "we" repeat the birth/death cycle endlessly, as different beings, with no connection or link between existences.

Google:
General Subjective Continuity
Existential Passage

There are some philosophers that originated the above concepts, and both seem intriguing. I actually dread this possibility and fear it is very real, although I'm an agnostic and have no idea what, if anything, follows death.

Your thoughts?


BS.



Lord_Gareth
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07 Oct 2012, 3:22 pm

dkbkt wrote:
"I" did not exist before "I" was born.

"I" suddenly became this conscious being.

When "I" die, "I" will not exist.

The traditional physicalist perspective is that after death, there is no subjective consciousness.
Or to put it plainly, "After this life, we will experience no more."

However, I question this. After all, once "I" die, doesn't that put "me" in the same position as "I" was prior to birth, i.e. nonexistence?

Nonexistence --> birth/death --> Nonexistence

Could the cycle repeat like the following:

Nonexistence -- birth/death --> Nonexistence --> birth......?

Could "we" look forward to a random continuation of consciousness as different beings (I quite dread this possibility 8O 8O....)

After all, what preceded "my" birth was nonexistence. Nonexistence will follow my death. Why wouldn't the cycle repeat (on a subjective level that is...)?

This is not an argument for reincarnation with souls or karma. It presupposes a naturalist universe. Just that on a subjective level, perhaps "we" repeat the birth/death cycle endlessly, as different beings, with no connection or link between existences.

Google:
General Subjective Continuity
Existential Passage

There are some philosophers that originated the above concepts, and both seem intriguing. I actually dread this possibility and fear it is very real, although I'm an agnostic and have no idea what, if anything, follows death.

Your thoughts?


While there's no way to actually disprove this, I am forced to ask this question - does it matter? Without some kind of constant factor (a "soul", memories, etc) there's no real difference between "you" existing again and an entirely different person existing.


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Et in Arcadia ego. - "Even in Arcadia, there am I."


dkbkt
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07 Oct 2012, 5:01 pm

Lord_Gareth wrote:
While there's no way to actually disprove this, I am forced to ask this question - does it matter? Without some kind of constant factor (a "soul", memories, etc) there's no real difference between "you" existing again and an entirely different person existing.


It matters, because the traditional notion is that we will experience nothing after we die. For many of us, this is sweet relief if it is true.

Could it be possible the individual self ("I") is an illusion and consciousness is continuous without a soul or memories?

I know "I" won't exist again. But doesn't dying reset the clock to exactly the position we were in prior to birth (nonexistence)? If this is so, then birth could happen again and again, just no soul, no memories of the prior existence.

After all, there was no trace of "me" before "I" was born. It matters because I may not look forward to sweet nothingness or oblivion after all.



Tensu
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08 Oct 2012, 12:03 am

dkbkt wrote:
Lord_Gareth wrote:
While there's no way to actually disprove this, I am forced to ask this question - does it matter? Without some kind of constant factor (a "soul", memories, etc) there's no real difference between "you" existing again and an entirely different person existing.


It matters, because the traditional notion is that we will experience nothing after we die. For many of us, this is sweet relief if it is true.

Could it be possible the individual self ("I") is an illusion and consciousness is continuous without a soul or memories?

I know "I" won't exist again. But doesn't dying reset the clock to exactly the position we were in prior to birth (nonexistence)? If this is so, then birth could happen again and again, just no soul, no memories of the prior existence.

After all, there was no trace of "me" before "I" was born. It matters because I may not look forward to sweet nothingness or oblivion after all.


But if your hypothetical next form has nothing in constant with you, it might want to be reborn.



donnie_darko
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08 Oct 2012, 8:34 am

That's actually what I think is likely.



JNathanK
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08 Oct 2012, 5:50 pm

Yah, it makes sense to me, that we may just be on a long and eternal line of rebirths. Another thing to consider is that if our perception ceases to be when we go into a period of non-existence, then it wouldn't matter the probability of being reborn. If it takes trillions of years for factors to line up again for your "self", whatever that is exactly, to become a conscious entity again, death might be like falling asleep and waking up a trillion years in the future as a child, since you would have had no perception of the gap. All that would matter is that there's a possibility of being born at all, which we being here now is direct proof of. If any set of factors is possible, it can certainly be repeated, despite whatever its level of probability may be.

That might be all there is for the universe to perceive itself, this phenomenon were in right now, and its probably a lot more common than we assume.



JNathanK
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08 Oct 2012, 5:57 pm

dkbkt wrote:

It matters, because the traditional notion is that we will experience nothing after we die. For many of us, this is sweet relief if it is true.



A lot of this traditional notion is based in Christianity (and arguably classical Greek paganism), because of the idea that we have two static destinations after we die, heaven and hell. Even atheists, who think there's absolutely nothing after we die, are affected by this assumption of there being nothing else to corporeal existence beyond the grave. They just take it a leap further and apply the same assumption to incorporeal existence.



JNathanK
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08 Oct 2012, 6:06 pm

dkbkt wrote:
[ue.

Could it be possible the individual self ("I") is an illusion and consciousness is continuous without a soul or memories?



I've been thinking that the "I" and personhood is an illusion to the extent that all self hood is part of an interconnected continuum that always has been and always will be, and were mostly unaware of this interconnected continuum as the sentient, ego centered organisms we are. I don't think the self dies. The water droplet just re-merges with the river, so to speak.



donnie_darko
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08 Oct 2012, 6:57 pm

I think it's kind of weird that was born in the greatest empire in history, at the time the most number of people will ever probably be born, and as a member of a group that is supposedly the most privileged (white male).



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08 Oct 2012, 7:21 pm

Lego is very pricey. Wish I'd held onto mine.

But this? No. I don't think so - it seems a very particular idea, based on a lot of ifs. Before I was born, I didn't exist, not least because I was created from the reproductive cells of two separate bodies. Further, my consciousness is heavily informed and coloured by (and dependent upon) my physical embodiment. Which is my main problem with that 'let's upload our consciousnesses!' fantasy.

Furtherer, I certainly hope it's not so.

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Afterlife? Pfft. If I'd thought I had to go through a whole 'nother life, I'd kill myself right now.



donnie_darko
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08 Oct 2012, 7:39 pm

Hopper wrote:
Lego is very pricey. Wish I'd held onto mine.

But this? No. I don't think so - it seems a very particular idea, based on a lot of ifs. Before I was born, I didn't exist, not least because I was created from the reproductive cells of two separate bodies. Further, my consciousness is heavily informed and coloured by (and dependent upon) my physical embodiment. Which is my main problem with that 'let's upload our consciousnesses!' fantasy.

Furtherer, I certainly hope it's not so.

Bender wrote:
Afterlife? Pfft. If I'd thought I had to go through a whole 'nother life, I'd kill myself right now.


I think our beliefs tend to be coloured by our wishes.



JNathanK
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09 Oct 2012, 12:51 pm

Hopper wrote:
Further, my consciousness is heavily informed and coloured by (and dependent upon) my physical embodiment. .


Well our consciousness may be colored and informed by the input of our physical bodies, but there may be a state where it isn't colored or isn't informed beyond death and before life, much like a blanked slate. I think physical matter alters it and channels it a certain way, but, like empty space, it exists on its own whether matter impresses itself on it or not. I think our physical brains warp consciousness into psyche the same way mass warps space-time into a gravitational field, but the foundations of consciousness no more cease to be when the brain decomposes anymore than space-time ceases to be when a planet or a star decomposes.

I think another way to look at it is like a radio station. If the signal stops being transmitted, the channel is still there on the radio dial. Its just white noise with no input, but its still present and can be resupplied with information given the right set of circumstances. I'll go a step further too. Even if the radio itself is destroyed, the frequency that the dial was set to for the channel still exists within the laws of physics and mathematics, though the station and receiver are no more.

There's many parts of personage, some finite, and some infinite.



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09 Oct 2012, 2:06 pm

The OP was well written and interesting to read but i feel this is just the age old question of whether or not we have a soul. It sounds to me like the OP does not want to have a soul. But I think deep down most people do.

I often wonder if we live the same life over and over. We could die and then wake up as our five year old self and think what a weird dream I just had. We have no idea whether this has already happened, or how many times it has happened.



JNathanK
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09 Oct 2012, 2:32 pm

Robdemanc wrote:
The OP was well written and interesting to read but i feel this is just the age old question of whether or not we have a soul. It sounds to me like the OP does not want to have a soul. But I think deep down most people do.

I often wonder if we live the same life over and over. We could die and then wake up as our five year old self and think what a weird dream I just had. We have no idea whether this has already happened, or how many times it has happened.


I've thought that as a possibility, but due to the way quantum superpositions manifest dualistically, I think its just as likely that there's a very wide spectrum of possibilities, a lot of gray area between opposite poles, for us to be born into and for us to traverse. Maybe were even born into the same life, but it can range from really hellish to very heavenly.