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kxmode
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05 Sep 2012, 8:50 pm

Many thousands of years ago these inspired words were written, "For [God's] invisible [qualities] are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable;" (Romans 1:20) From the sub-atomic to the grand cosmos the Fibonacci numbers are found everywhere. It shows, proof, that a Creator left his signature for all the world to see. Another scripture simply states "Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but he that constructed all things is God." (Hebrews 3:4)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9MwNm0gXd8[/youtube]How could evolution be responsible for this mathematical miracle? Evolution suggests that everything came about by mere chance and through a process of elimination arrived at the final product. However evolution cannot explain the Fibonacci numbers. The fact that these numbers appear everywhere shows that evolution, or the chance existence of things, is not true.



Vexcalibur
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05 Sep 2012, 9:38 pm

Quote:
How could evolution be responsible for this mathematical miracle?


It is just a mundane series :/

Sequences appear everywhere. If you consider only nature processes in which Fibonacci occurs and ignore the many of them in which other series or fractals happen then you are missing out.

0 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21

It is no coincidence the Fibonacci series appears in nature. Because the series was first invented and used to solve a math problem that surfaced in nature.

Anyway: http://www.fibonacci.name/Nature-Why.html

The fibonacci series happens a lot in nature simply because it provides optimal exponential growth. Mutation, selection and reproduction area already known to be able to generate algorithms (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_programming for more information). So it is not at all shocking to find that evolution can find the golden ratio.

In fact, as long as complicated algorithms go. Reading genetic code is one of the hardest ones ever. We have not even decoded it yet.

And BTW, The "slime mold" has routing algorithms that are more sophisticated than the stuff we currently have: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 141051.htm

All of this is great and cool. But rather than dismiss evolution. It to me, shows how great evolution truly is. A very simple process who can generate the most complicated models and processes. True insight and stuff. In fact, to be honest, when I came to truly understand evolution and at the same time, genetic programming and the whole universe. Nature is so marvelous and magnificent by itself that it does not need a deity to be impressive anymore. It least not for me.

Quote:
Evolution suggests that everything came about by mere chance

No, it does not.

It states why there are species. That life forms have a common ancestor and it also details a process by which differentiation by species can happen. The mutations are dependent on chance, and parts of the selection process are based by chance... However, the overall process is not completely up to chance. Chance is what generates the changes, but the environment is what ultimately decides if a change is good or not.

Consider the following program:
Code:
while (true {
     x = random.int(1,10000)
     if (x*x = x*x*x - 900) {
            return x
    }
}
Although it has random components, the algorithm always returns 10. It is a random search. The process depends on chance, but ultimately what picks the number to return is the condition.

Quote:
and through a process of elimination arrived at the final product.

There is no "final" product in evolution.

Quote:
However evolution cannot explain the Fibonacci numbers.
Of course it can :/

In fact, like I already said, but I will repeat anymore. It makes evolution look so marvelous when you figure this out. Reality is so outstanding and big. I find it so much more impressive that the universe and life works and had to be a LOT of work. A LOT OF LIVES HAD TO BE SACRIFICED before a sun flower could use Fibonacci's sequence. To me, it is a so much better and epic story than "magic deity just wished it so".


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05 Sep 2012, 9:59 pm

What is the value of Pi?

If you say "Exactly 3" then you are wrong, but consider the Bible to be inerrant. Refer to 2nd Chronicles 4:2 and 1st Kings 7:23.

If you say "3.1", "3.14", "3.142", "3.1416", "3.14159", or "3.141593", then your answer becomes more correct with each additional digit, but you don't believe the Bible to be perfect.

Why do I bring this up? Just to show that numbers are not the "Fingerprint of God". They are numbers, data, and facts only.


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05 Sep 2012, 10:12 pm

The Fibonacci series, like evolution, is a product of the natrual laws of mathematics and physics in this universe. If you believe that the laws can exist without a cosmic lawyer, then you don't need a god for them to exist; if you think you need a lawyer to have laws, then you do. It's nearly a tautology.



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05 Sep 2012, 10:19 pm

It is amazing and beautiful. But it is not evidence for God.


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06 Sep 2012, 7:33 am

LKL wrote:
The Fibonacci series, like evolution, is a product of the natrual laws of mathematics and physics in this universe. If you believe that the laws can exist without a cosmic lawyer, then you don't need a god for them to exist; if you think you need a lawyer to have laws, then you do. It's nearly a tautology.


At the most elementary physical level the cosmos designs itself. It is a self-organizing system. That will happen whenever there are negative feedback control loops in operation.

ruveyn



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06 Sep 2012, 9:33 am

kxmode wrote:
From the sub-atomic to the grand cosmos the Fibonacci numbers are found everywhere.

Tons of numbers, patterns and models appear from the sub-atomic to the grand cosmos.

It is a very partial view to think only the Fibonacci sequence has this privilege.


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ruveyn
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06 Sep 2012, 10:44 am

Vexcalibur wrote:
kxmode wrote:
From the sub-atomic to the grand cosmos the Fibonacci numbers are found everywhere.

Tons of numbers, patterns and models appear from the sub-atomic to the grand cosmos.

It is a very partial view to think only the Fibonacci sequence has this privilege.


Gaussian Normal distributions are found frequently. See the Central Limit Theorem.

The sum of umpteen identically distributed random variables is a Gaussian Normal r.v.

ruveyn



06 Sep 2012, 10:59 am

I'd like to think of the Bernoulli numbers as the 'mathematical miracle' described by kxmode. A big reason for this is that unlike the Fibonacci numbers, they cannot be expressed in closed form.



kxmode
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10 Sep 2012, 10:18 pm

This...

kxmode wrote:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9MwNm0gXd8[/youtube]


coupled with this...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjPcT1uUZiE[/youtube]
...takes more faith to believe something this complex appeared by mere chance.



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11 Sep 2012, 1:17 am

ruveyn wrote:
LKL wrote:
The Fibonacci series, like evolution, is a product of the natrual laws of mathematics and physics in this universe. If you believe that the laws can exist without a cosmic lawyer, then you don't need a god for them to exist; if you think you need a lawyer to have laws, then you do. It's nearly a tautology.


At the most elementary physical level the cosmos designs itself. It is a self-organizing system. That will happen whenever there are negative feedback control loops in operation.

ruveyn

I agree, but I doubt that the OP does.



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11 Sep 2012, 1:21 am

kxmode wrote:
...takes more faith to believe something this complex appeared by mere chance.

{sigh}
the straw ToE steps through the door.
The Theory of Evolution isn't about chance, darling. It's about selection applied to chance; with the molecules, they're actually much simpler than they look; no laws of chemistry are broken, or even stretched, to put those molecules together.



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11 Sep 2012, 6:59 am

Y = 3X + 5X and X = 1/8

Therefore: Y = X(3 + 5)

Therefore: Y = 8/8

Therefore: Y = 1 and God exists! Proof positive. :P

Stay tuned for tomorrow's Jehovah's Witnesses algebra lesson, where we will use Pythagoras theorem to prove that the Devil exists and that he ate a bacon sandwich for lunch while riding on a unicycle and thinking about his strategy for Armageddon.


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Tensu
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11 Sep 2012, 7:23 am

Fnord wrote:
What is the value of Pi?

If you say "Exactly 3" then you are wrong, but consider the Bible to be inerrant. Refer to 2nd Chronicles 4:2 and 1st Kings 7:23.

If you say "3.1", "3.14", "3.142", "3.1416", "3.14159", or "3.141593", then your answer becomes more correct with each additional digit, but you don't believe the Bible to be perfect.

Why do I bring this up? Just to show that numbers are not the "Fingerprint of God". They are numbers, data, and facts only.


Rounding up Pi doesn't make the Bible imperfect.

Rounding exists.

Deal with it.



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11 Sep 2012, 9:53 am

Bible never mentions that it rounded. And rounding with +-1 precision is quite absurd.


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