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Aspie_Chav
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06 Oct 2012, 10:08 am

simon_says wrote:
Aspie_Chav wrote:
KinetiK wrote:
I think it's highly unlikely that the Bush tax cuts paid for themselves, whether you analyze them using economic models or common sense. It's true that government taxation can crowd out potential private investment, but it's not in anything close to a 1 to 1 ratio. For every dollar cut in taxes, some of that dollar is saved. Rich people tend to save more, and the Bush tax cuts overwhelmingly favored the rich.


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You said that rich people saved more. What do they do with the money? Do they horde it under the couch? Or do they invest it. When they invest the money. That invested money give business an ability to borrow money to grow their business. What I don't believe in in interference from State. Taking one hand and giving with another is interference. Not only interference has unintended consequences, it always has administration costs, which gets added in form of tax.


They invest it globally quite often, with the profits ending up in overseas tax havens. As as been highlighted recently. The wealthy elite of Mexico or Africa havent done their people any favors and that's the kind of society that many wealthy in the west would like to see.

Even Ronald Reagan's own budget director says that the GOP has become an anti-tax cult. Adults pay for things.


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ruveyn
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06 Oct 2012, 10:10 am

simon_says wrote:


They invest it globally quite often, with the profits ending up in overseas tax havens.


So what? Its their money. They can invest it where they want to. Generally money is invested where it will yield the largest return to the investor.

ruveyn



TM
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06 Oct 2012, 10:49 am

ruveyn wrote:
simon_says wrote:


They invest it globally quite often, with the profits ending up in overseas tax havens.


So what? Its their money. They can invest it where they want to. Generally money is invested where it will yield the largest return to the investor.

ruveyn


Which is actually a damn good argument in favor for countries that desire investment to stop tripping investors up.



Aspie_Chav
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06 Oct 2012, 12:54 pm

ruveyn wrote:
simon_says wrote:


They invest it globally quite often, with the profits ending up in overseas tax havens.


So what? Its their money. They can invest it where they want to. Generally money is invested where it will yield the largest return to the investor.

ruveyn


That would make it very good for a country, if it stayed in the country.



visagrunt
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08 Oct 2012, 11:38 am

ruveyn wrote:
simon_says wrote:


They invest it globally quite often, with the profits ending up in overseas tax havens.


So what? Its their money. They can invest it where they want to. Generally money is invested where it will yield the largest return to the investor.

ruveyn


Which is fine, provided that they are taxed at a reasonable level before they move their capital offshore; and provided that they do not evade taxation on the returns on those offshore investments.


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TM
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08 Oct 2012, 11:53 am

visagrunt wrote:

Which is fine, provided that they are taxed at a reasonable level before they move their capital offshore; and provided that they do not evade taxation on the returns on those offshore investments.


If I invest money I earned in a different country, in a different country, then why should I pay taxes to a country which had nothing to do with those investments? It's a bit like paying someone a salary for not working for you.

There is also an argument that if the tax was at a reasonable level, capital wouldn't be moved off-shore. Once people begin to realize that "high tax rates" = "Less ROI" IE it makes the NPV of an investment lower*, they tend to understand why people elect to invest in countries with better tax rates.

*Note, when you do an NPV calculation its more or less Cost to undertake investment + R/(Cost of capital)^n If you then have to deal with 20% or higher taxes on the investment, in comparison to your competitors, then you cannot compete.



GGPViper
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08 Oct 2012, 2:37 pm

Taxation, in itself, is (in isolation) detrimental to an economy due to dead weight losses. Unless we assume a price elasticity of zero...

The tricky part, though, is finding the sweet spot on the Laffer curve...

Has it even been proven that tax havens hurt economies at all? (honestly, I do not know, but that is why I ask...)



TM
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08 Oct 2012, 3:20 pm

GGPViper wrote:
Taxation, in itself, is (in isolation) detrimental to an economy due to dead weight losses. Unless we assume a price elasticity of zero...

The tricky part, though, is finding the sweet spot on the Laffer curve...

Has it even been proven that tax havens hurt economies at all? (honestly, I do not know, but that is why I ask...)


As far as I know, its one of those things people will argue on regardless on what studies say about it. There was a paper on it by a guy named Desai (http://www.people.hbs.edu/mdesai/econlettersfinal.pdf) that I read a while ago, and the economist have published extensively on it.

But to my knowledge there hasn't been a truly decisive study on it.

http://www.economist.com/node/21532264



visagrunt
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09 Oct 2012, 6:06 pm

TM wrote:
If I invest money I earned in a different country, in a different country, then why should I pay taxes to a country which had nothing to do with those investments? It's a bit like paying someone a salary for not working for you.

There is also an argument that if the tax was at a reasonable level, capital wouldn't be moved off-shore. Once people begin to realize that "high tax rates" = "Less ROI" IE it makes the NPV of an investment lower*, they tend to understand why people elect to invest in countries with better tax rates.

*Note, when you do an NPV calculation its more or less Cost to undertake investment + R/(Cost of capital)^n If you then have to deal with 20% or higher taxes on the investment, in comparison to your competitors, then you cannot compete.


Because the law of the country where you reside requires you to pay tax on your global income. Indeed, US citizens carry tax obligations with them even if they reside entirely outside the United States.


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09 Oct 2012, 7:32 pm

Can I point out that all this finger pointing back and forth does nothing to solve the problem? Who cares who created what debt? Both political parties are essentially the same. They serve the same people. Bush sucked, and Obama totally sucks. It doesn't matter who caused what debt, and figuring out who caused more doesn't solve a damn thing. It's not like we can use that as a basis for which party we should vote for this time around.

NEITHER PARTY CARES ABOUT YOU OR I.



TM
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10 Oct 2012, 10:54 am

visagrunt wrote:
TM wrote:
If I invest money I earned in a different country, in a different country, then why should I pay taxes to a country which had nothing to do with those investments? It's a bit like paying someone a salary for not working for you.

There is also an argument that if the tax was at a reasonable level, capital wouldn't be moved off-shore. Once people begin to realize that "high tax rates" = "Less ROI" IE it makes the NPV of an investment lower*, they tend to understand why people elect to invest in countries with better tax rates.

*Note, when you do an NPV calculation its more or less Cost to undertake investment + R/(Cost of capital)^n If you then have to deal with 20% or higher taxes on the investment, in comparison to your competitors, then you cannot compete.


Because the law of the country where you reside requires you to pay tax on your global income. Indeed, US citizens carry tax obligations with them even if they reside entirely outside the United States.


Actually, U.S tax law doesn't tax corporations on foreign income until its "repatriated" to the United States, therefore if so long as your foreign earnings go directly to a shell corporation or a holding company organized as some form of LLC (limited liability company) located in lets say the Cayman Islands, where you own 100% of the equity, you don't have to pay taxes on it.

The equity would technically count as net worth, however as far as I know the U.S doesn't have a tax on net worth, only on income and capital gains (it's not counted as capital gains until you either pay out dividends or sell equity).

You could also organize multiple holding companies, in a hierarchy structure, which if complex enough and with corporate headquarters all around the world would be near impossible to effectively go through for the government during a tax audit. You would also be free to invest the money in the country you earned it without paying taxes on it.



visagrunt
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10 Oct 2012, 5:31 pm

TM wrote:
Actually, U.S tax law doesn't tax corporations on foreign income until its "repatriated" to the United States, therefore if so long as your foreign earnings go directly to a shell corporation or a holding company organized as some form of LLC (limited liability company) located in lets say the Cayman Islands, where you own 100% of the equity, you don't have to pay taxes on it.

The equity would technically count as net worth, however as far as I know the U.S doesn't have a tax on net worth, only on income and capital gains (it's not counted as capital gains until you either pay out dividends or sell equity).

You could also organize multiple holding companies, in a hierarchy structure, which if complex enough and with corporate headquarters all around the world would be near impossible to effectively go through for the government during a tax audit. You would also be free to invest the money in the country you earned it without paying taxes on it.


I spoke of individuals offshoring their assets. Corporations are fine, because ultimately their shareholders should face taxation based on the payment of dividends or the realization of capital gains from within the United States.

But a US resident is subject to deeming provisions within US tax law that specifically make this type of practice illegal. Now I don't dispute that it can be done--and is done. But that doesn't make it legal.


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