Should girls be beaten less severely than boys?

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No one should be beaten. Ever. Ever. Ever.

I dont understand the question? Is it allowed to beat your children in the USA? O_o

No children should be beaten ever!! !

No, you are not allowed to beat your children. You ARE allowed to physically correct their behavior. What is important to note is that there is a fine line between correction and abuse. Physical forms of discipline lose their effectiveness with overuse and age. In my family it is strictly last resort or reserved for extreme infractions, e.g. behaviors that would put the child's life in danger and a few zero-tolerance behaviors like gross disrespect and lying. It's extremely rare for us to go there, and our kids have to really screw up bad for that to happen.

By about 8 years, there isn't much point to physical discipline. Any long-term behavioral patterns should be in place and parent expectations clearly communicated by that point, regardless of the form of preferred discipline methods used. We're preparing for adulthood, so preteens have to begin experiencing adult consequences, i.e. loss of privileges, financial loss, loss of freedom to spend time with friends, use of car, or whatever is appropriate to the situation.

My primary means of behavior modifIcation involves engaging my children in what I do as a pianist and piano teacher. The challenge is establishing boundaries that don't normally exist between parents and children and training young fingers to do what they don't normally do...and then proceed to work harder over long periods of time. With consistency we've developed common bonds, begun building a powerful work ethic, acquired useful skills, improved fine motor development, and greatly improved behavior. In a way, it is physical discipline, but more physical/mental/emotional conditioning than punishment, not to mention the intrinsic rewards that come with success in mastering technical issues. So for us, while physical punishment remains an option, it is increasingly pushed to irrelevance as our children get older.

And if that is the goal, it is a legit and effective response to misbehavior. What must be avoided is doing injury to a child, and anything that causes bruising or worse is going too far.

There is a sexual element to a grown man hitting a teenage girl with a paddle. It is surprising that this is acceptable in some parts of the States.

Its really hard for me to understand. I mean I think everyone would feel it as wrong, if I just started to physical correct another person or child. So there are enough persons, whom i thought the would deserve, by the way theay are car driving and risking others life and so on. Or by having no manners at all. But it is not my part to "physical correct" them. Even the police and the whole judgement system, does not have the right to "physical correct" someone, who is misbehaving, because doing so is wrong. Beating another person physical is wrong. (As long as its not for self defense or whatever. So the police has the right to use physical violence to stop someone from doing a crime, but they are not allowed to use physical violence BECAUSE of someone did something wrong. Not as punishment.) Because doing so is disrespecting. Even if the other person is disrespecting me, I am not allowed to be disrespecting him too, because how I can insist that his disrespecting behaviour was wrong, when in the opposite I think its ok doing so, as long as not I am the one being hit?

So even the last criminal has the right to this respect. And my own children should be worth less to me, then an criminal?

I dont know, how I shall teach my children that it is absolutely wrong to physical attack a person (if its not really self defense) because every person has the right and the worth of being argued with his oppinions, except for them? Because they are my childs, they are worth less and allowed to be beaten? It would mean, to teach him, that he is not equal to other humans. So instead of other humans who I must respect to not beat them, my children would not be worth of this respect.

So I really do believe you, that you are not trying to physically hurt you. But as you told your oppinions, it leaves for me the problem, that every persons draws the borders and sees things in a different light. So if I´d see a person whos child was just risking another childs life, because of being careless, and in the fear and the heat of the situation, he would loose temper and clap...so its not good and I dont think it should be solved in this way, but in an extrem life important situation I can understand that people loose their self-control.

But as you told, for you its lying too. So normally noones life is at risk because of small children lying about stuff or homework or such things. So this is really too hard for me. And with no law regulating this in some way, every parent can draw the line where he wants. So for you its about lying and disrespecting. For the next its because the child is doing "bad" in math and only has average notes in math. The next one, because the child fell and damaged his trousers and so is "disrespecting his parents efforts to buy him cloths". The next one, because the childs wants not to drink his milk, or refuses to train the fourth hours of guitar training after school.

So there has to be an official border for this "physical correction" in some way? So maybe it it isnt about physically hurting the child, but still there must be some law regulating this "physical correction", to prevent children getting corrected for things like "Didnt want to pray before sleeping?" I mean sure, most parents will mean it in a good way, but there are also enough crazy people around, that also have children, that somehow must be protected from physical correction out of no real reason?

You bring up excellent points. I apologize if I don't cover everything, but as far as how this has played out with our own children, here are my thoughts (I'll try to cover more what NOT to do in another post if I ever get time):

First off, physical contact (of any kind) is a form of communication. Physical contact between adults and children has a lot of negative associations, e.g. pedophiles, but not all physical contact is a bad thing. I pick up my children and hold them all the time, give them lots of hugs and kisses, etc. I'm communicating to them that we don't have the usual boundaries that we have with other people and that our familial relationships are deeply intimate in a nurturing, loving environment.

Small children, however, are not immediately aware of boundaries between good behavior and proper ways of relating to others and behaviors that are embarrassing or oven harmful/dangerous to themselves and others. People often ask us regarding our children how they are so well-behaved in restaurants and other places. It's because we've set rules for behavior in public and we consistently enforce those rules...the kids know full well the consequences and understand that it is in their better interests to show good behavior.

This was not easy at first. As an example, our oldest child began to develop the bad habit of sliding down his chair at a restaurant and start crawling around on the floor. Sometimes he would do this to switch from one side of the table to the other. But mostly it was to avoid eating what was on his plate and to steal something off someone else's. In trying to correct him, all we'd end up with was an unconsolable screaming toddler and we couldn't even finish our meals. We recognized that despite our efforts to communicate to our oldest that his behavior was inappropriate, he honestly did not understand or have any concept of the embarrassment or distress he was causing us. Thus in order to teach him to be remorseful, we had to make him FEEL, albeit physically, the emotional and mental distress he was making us feel. This, of course, is not so unpleasant if you have to wait to get home to be punished. But there are ways to do this discreetly to avoid disturbing other customers, and my son quickly learned that no matter where we were--eating at a restaurant, grocery shopping, whatever--he could be disciplined just as quickly as he could at home. So for a time it was merely a deterrent. His thinking has changed since then to "I don't want to do this because I'll be punished" to "I don't want to do this because decent people don't act that way." No form of discipline or punishment does any good if the intrinsic lessons are never learned.

As we had subsequent children, this has gotten MUCH easier. We didn't change our methods for our daughter per se, but it did quickly become apparent that physical punishment does not affect her as much. I can't really explain HOW, but obviously we've had to tweak things a little. On the surface she's a good little girl, but she's also really sneaky and instinctively finds and exploits loopholes. Mom says I'm too hard on her--however, I'm the one who spends a majority of my time with my children while mom works all day. So I see a lot of these little subversive things firsthand. Now that she's out of daycare and in pre-kindergarten (and in a MUCH improved environment), much of that has gotten better. She's a bigger risk-taker--which is largely a GOOD thing that I have a lot of respect for, but she hasn't developed a sense of CALCULATED risk-taking yet. So for her, consequences often don't really matter that much. What helps make her easier to deal with and keeps her out of trouble in public settings is simple peer pressure. I have to leave her alone with a lunch crowd I play piano for for some 10 minutes, give or take, every Wednesday at a meeting, and she sits still, stays attentive, and just brings a smile to the faces of everyone sitting around her. It's not because she's used to being left alone with strangers. It's because she's been in the habit of behaving properly at meals for so long with her family and watching her older brother that she doesn't know any other way to act when she's by herself.

When it was just the two of them, we'd sit in a booth at a restaurant and have both kids sit beside us right next to the wall. That way, they couldn't randomly get out of their seats and run around the restaurant. We see this happen with other children all the time and we find it appalling. We did this for years, and so now when we sit at regular tables with our 9 month old, they stay in their seats. It's not because they fear consequences, but because that's just what they've always done. I don't think they even realize that they didn't start out as perfect kids!


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As far as WHAT to punish goes, which is the crux of everything else you brought up:

When I say "disrespect," I'm talking GROSS disrespect. Kids are going to push rules and boundaries no matter what your parenting style is, your discipline style, or whatever. I'm aware of that. You can get angry with me because I didn't buy you frozen yogurt on Friday or because I didn't give you an extra piece of chocolate after dinner if you want to get angry about it. You can even tell me you don't like me right now and that you just want to be alone for a little while. I'll even let you scream at me if you don't mind me screaming back!

However...

You will NOT throw your toys at me. If I tell you to be quiet while I'm driving so I can concentrate on the road during rush hour, you do NOT get to throw something at me (not just disrespect, but total regard for everyone else's safety). You do NOT get to assert yourself when I've made a decision and discussion is closed. You do NOT make ugly remarks about ANY member of your immediate family, whether adults or siblings. You do NOT destroy property--not yours, because that's wasteful, and certainly not that of anyone else. And you certainly do NOT act belligerent towards ANY adults, whether us or anyone else. You do NOT use foul or profane language...period. Mom and Dad don't say those words, so neither will you.

My oldest two have been warned about those things before and were not punished the first time. They have deliberately pushed those boundaries since. They were punished. And they now know that they will be consistently punished ANY time they go there.

Those are just a few examples of what I mean, but the point is that the crime has to be SEVERE and DELIBERATE. I expect some degree of subversion from any child. That's just part of being a child. Usually a lot of it will just go away if I pretend to ignore it, because all they're trying to do is get a reaction and manipulate me. It doesn't take long for them to give that up. But they know very well that if they jump off the deep end, they're bringing me with them. If you're going to mess up with me, you better be sure it's worth it! It is extremely RARE for things to reach that point, and we do everything we can to make sure it doesn't happen. We aren't perfect people or perfect parents, but I think safeguarding the behavior of our children to the extent we do so that we avoid physical punishment has a lot to do with the positive behavior our children display out in public.

About lying:

Honesty is highly regarded in our household and we don't tolerate deception well. That's kind of a unique thing, I guess, because I've never had the ability to deceive people or lie convincingly, or it was just sheer luck when I managed to pull it off. My wife and I have, as far as I'm aware, a nearly transparent relationship and we know things about each other that would split up "normal" relationships. Like I said, we're not perfect, but we really do try, and being able to be so open with each other really has made our marriage and family much stronger than probably half the marriages out there.

We want to extend that ability to share and trust to our children and encourage the same kinds of bonds, openness, transparency, and intimacy that comes with the trust my wife and I already know. Which means when it comes to our children, we have to know EVERYTHING.

Now, we pick our battles carefully. If you bump a table and break a lamp, well, ok, it's just a cheap lamp. If we ask, we just want to know who did it and maybe whoever did it to clean it up if it's safe to do so. It's not a big deal. If you spill water, you should clean it up.

Our daughter recently went through this phase, however, of blaming everything on her older brother, whether it was his fault or not. Well, we're observant enough and know our children well enough to know who really did it. So we're not really asking for our own information. We're just asking for acknowledgment. So we find it deeply disturbing that our girl gives a knee-jerk response of blaming her older brother. Not only does it betray our trust, it's an attempt (because she hasn't figured out that she isn't necessarily in trouble) to harm another family member. To us, that is one of the most horrible things you can do to a sibling. So while you might at worst have gotten lightly verbally chastised for something that's more annoying than potentially harmful, now you've done something for the PURPOSE of doing harm to your brother.

In our family, that kind of thing is unacceptable in any form. It's not just a simple matter of deceit. It's far worse, and we don't want to see where a continued pattern of deceptive behavior could lead our daughter or the long-range effects it could have on her or our family as a whole. That's why certain things like lying and disrespect are dealt with harshly.

And we feel it is appropriate. I wouldn't dare suggest being harsh is a silver bullet for ALL behavior problems. We do make use of time-outs, taking away toys, taking away TV time, and so on. The balance is in finding what is best for the situation.