The menace of religious schools (Richard Dawkins).
OliveOilMom
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I went to a private Baptist school and it was horrible. In Alabama, teachers at private Christian schools didn't have to have a degree or license then, and I'm not sure if they do now or not.
My kids went to Catholic school while we lived in Bham and they got a great education. They enjoyed it and to be honest, Catholic schools do give a very good education. They don't just teach creationism, and even though you have a religion class that is mandatory, you are not forced to believe it, just to know what it teaches. You go to weekly Mass (daily during Lent) but you don't have to participate, you just have to sit still be be polite. There were kids there of all different religions and several Jewish kids. I had thought there was only one, but looking back, there was just one in my son's class but several more throughout the school. Quite a few Protestants of the non Fundamentallist variety too. Their teachers were degreed, etc.
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I went to public school, my sister went to Catholic.
I would describe my high school experience in public school as a "Pre-Prison" program. Students acted like ignorant monkeys, running around, screaming, stealing, fighting, students were proud of getting GPA's below 1.0, one kid was skipping because he got 1 D and 5 E's. Ignorance run riot. General Population classes often spent more time on discipline than teaching.
My sister's Catholic school had children who wanted to learn. Ignorant behavior was quickly dealt with and was actually uncommon. They had the same problems with drugs and alcohol and sex the public schools did, but the kids at least wanted to be educated teen moms, not welfare teen moms like public school.
They actually are accredited by independent agencies, and while they did have religion classes, you did not see the religion crossing over into other subjects. They very much taught science, not just "God did it."
In many ways the Catholic schools provide a much better education than the public schools.
I could easily see how a hole in the wall religious school, not accredited or accredited by some self accrediting body, could be an isue.
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Some of the top physics graduate students at Columbia University, were graduates of Y'shivah.
Studying Talmud can actually strengthen one's analytical abilities. The Talmud is a grand exercise in analogy and metaphor. Unlike Christianity, in Judaism one is expected to think and to question and not park his brains in the lot next to the church.
ruveyn
Some of the top physics graduate students at Columbia University, were graduates of Y'shivah.
Studying Talmud can actually strengthen one's analytical abilities. The Talmud is a grand exercise in analogy and metaphor. Unlike Christianity, in Judaism one is expected to think and to question and not park his brains in the lot next to the church.
ruveyn
So what are your views on the growing influence of Haredi education in Israel? It is getting increasingly difficult for me to distinguish them from the Taleban...
Oh, and my problem with the Haredi isn't that they study the Torah (Ignorant Gentile query: Why not the entire Tanakh, by the way) and Talmud. It is the absence of other topics.
Niqab-style garments are not unheard of in Haredi circles, and I've read reports of Orthodox Jews defending the 'right' of people to wear the niqab/burqa in Canada...
More information here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi_burqa_cult)
Oh, and my problem with the Haredi isn't that they study the Torah (Ignorant Gentile query: Why not the entire Tanakh, by the way) and Talmud. It is the absence of other topics.
Because the bulk of Jewish Law and ethics is in the Oral Tradition written down as the Babylonian Talmud.
The main book of Orthodox Judaism is the Talmud, not TNKH.
ruveyn
Oh, and my problem with the Haredi isn't that they study the Torah (Ignorant Gentile query: Why not the entire Tanakh, by the way) and Talmud. It is the absence of other topics.
Because the bulk of Jewish Law and ethics is in the Oral Tradition written down as the Babylonian Talmud.
The main book of Orthodox Judaism is the Talmud, not TNKH.
ruveyn
You very deftly avoided commenting on the Haredi issue .
From what I can tell, it's a tiny, tiny minority of a minority, and even within the Haredis, most of them are utterly disgusted with this particular cult, never mind ordinary Israelis.
I get the impression that they are almost as much hated by the vast majority of Israelis as the Jew-hating Neturei Karta loons.
From what I can tell, it's a tiny, tiny minority of a minority, and even within the Haredis, most of them are utterly disgusted with this particular cult, never mind ordinary Israelis.
I get the impression that they are almost as much hated by the vast majority of Israelis as the Jew-hating Neturei Karta loons.
I want to believe, but...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi_Jud ... mographics
http://www.haaretz.com/business/survey- ... x-1.455461
http://www.jpost.com/JewishWorld/Jewish ... ?id=274515
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 88,00.html
When mathematics is taught at 83 percent of Haredi elementary schools - yes, that is not 100 percent - I suggest there might be a serious problem... Especially considering that some of the greatest mathematicians to have ever lived, including the Mann, were Jewish...
Israel has endured onslaught by multiple enemies out to destroy it, but in the end, it might be crushed from within.
Religious schools are a detriment to public education.
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Yah, if they teach kids to think critically, whether religious or not, one day it'll be poems and dark sarcasm in the classroom, and the next it'll be anarchy I tells ya!
I don't think there was any benefit to learning Catholic dogma. Some Catholic schools do have better discipline than state schools (not all of them in Britain, though)...but the religious side of it is mostly a waste of time. At primary school I had and hour of RE every day and a one hour Mass once a week. I know there are other sides to education than just the academic side, but I don't think the RE and church really edified me and some other form of personal/social development education would've been better. Thankfully, the Catholic college I work at now is limited to one hour of RE a week, without the compulsory Mass. They lay on the religion heavier for the younger age groups. Considering that the school day at primary school lasts 6 hours, then I was spending the equivalent of one whole school day a week learning about Catholicism (an NO other religion).
There's no intellectual benefit. There's little social benefit because I seemed to be the only child in the school who followed those teachings. It actually messed me up in some ways because I took it very seriously when I was young. I was hyper religious and very anxious all the time.
They didn't have to do so much religion to justify themselves as a 'Catholic school'! But they did, anyway.
There's no intellectual benefit. There's little social benefit because I seemed to be the only child in the school who followed those teachings. It actually messed me up in some ways because I took it very seriously when I was young. I was hyper religious and very anxious all the time.
They didn't have to do so much religion to justify themselves as a 'Catholic school'! But they did, anyway.
I'm sorry to hear that. It does look as though it damages a lot more children than others, and can fanaticise/radicalise vulnerable young people who really don't have a lot of things going for them.
If you listened to the Catholic bloke from Northern Ireland, he was pretty aggressive and intransigent in basically suggesting that religious schools should be able to teach kids whatever they like and it's "parental choice". I think this kind of mindset is why there is so much of a chasm between unionists and nationalists, even if they don't actually believe in their religion.
I think the fact they don't want the state monitoring what they actually teach children in RE says it all, and they can have more than 5+ hours of religious education per week (not even covering all religions - but just the one religion) is worrying in the extreme IMO.
I do think the C of E woman is playing with fire when she says that people need to have faith, but she never said what that faith is. She may well end up giving people faith, but not in something nice. pleasant and C of E with that sort of thinking.
MarketAndChurch
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From what I can tell, it's a tiny, tiny minority of a minority, and even within the Haredis, most of them are utterly disgusted with this particular cult, never mind ordinary Israelis.
I get the impression that they are almost as much hated by the vast majority of Israelis as the Jew-hating Neturei Karta loons.
I want to believe, but...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi_Jud ... mographics
http://www.haaretz.com/business/survey- ... x-1.455461
http://www.jpost.com/JewishWorld/Jewish ... ?id=274515
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 88,00.html
When mathematics is taught at 83 percent of Haredi elementary schools - yes, that is not 100 percent - I suggest there might be a serious problem... Especially considering that some of the greatest mathematicians to have ever lived, including the Mann, were Jewish...
Israel has endured onslaught by multiple enemies out to destroy it, but in the end, it might be crushed from within.
Mathematics doesn't tell you how to live life. They've found a way to live life, and that is good enough for them.
Pretty much anyone can attend a reform synagogue, I'm a religious humanist and you see all sort of weirdo's and many secular humanists as well in attendance so I do not come from that line of of thought, and i'm not around them often enough to claim I know them well. So I'm coming from the opposite end of things here,...
But I will only note that they are necessary in Jewish life, and even though I disagree with some of their interpretations and gender roles, they are necessary for the survival of what remains of Jewish religiosity, and that does not include reconstructionist or humanistic judaism. There's enough Jews around to be chemists, physicists, engineers, doctors, lawyers, etc, we can(AND SHOULD) sacrifice a few in this regard.
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MarketAndChurch
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There's no intellectual benefit. There's little social benefit because I seemed to be the only child in the school who followed those teachings. It actually messed me up in some ways because I took it very seriously when I was young. I was hyper religious and very anxious all the time.
They didn't have to do so much religion to justify themselves as a 'Catholic school'! But they did, anyway.
I do agree, the only reasons the people I know who went through catholic school and college stay catholic is either a crazy amount of faith (which is the minority of them) or emotional attachments to the faith, ie they grew up with it, its easier for relationship with parents, etc.
I'm not Anti-Catholic, it is just disturbing all the atheists I debate, a large number of them come from a catholic upraising or attended catholic school. If you are producing so many atheists, maybe you need to rethink your approach, and judaism is more guilty of this... half of Jews are non-religious secular humanists or buddhists, and a large chunk of those who are religious have no reason to do so, so in the coming generations, they will marry out of the faith.
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