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Sarcastic_Name
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29 Mar 2005, 1:13 pm

I don't know who I disagree more with... TAFKASH or chadmaster. First off, the Christians and Catholics use a slightly different Bible. The Catholic Bible has a few extra books in it that lead to contradictions. And so, Catholics and Christians are different. Not only that, Christians don't have a pope or higher up the ladder human leader. chadmaster is your typical brainwashed Catholic stereotype that annoys me beyond belief. To not even attempt to back up half the crap you say and to hang on the every word of some old guy who is a good swindler is ludacris. By the way, TAFKASH, not ALL Christian churches demand your money. My church just encourages it if you're a member. You need to look more deeply into the differences between Christians and Catholics to fully comprehend the point I am trying to make. I don't mind admitting it, but I'm anti-Catholic, I'll respect Catholics, but I'll just be slightly biased against anything religous they say. And as for a link between AS and fundamentalism, I don't know enough about AS to give an accurate response.


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thechadmaster
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29 Mar 2005, 6:30 pm

Sarcastic_Name wrote:
I don't know who I disagree more with... TAFKASH or chadmaster. First off, the Christians and Catholics use a slightly different Bible. The Catholic Bible has a few extra books in it that lead to contradictions. And so, Catholics and Christians are different. Not only that, Christians don't have a pope or higher up the ladder human leader. chadmaster is your typical brainwashed Catholic stereotype that annoys me beyond belief.


Brain washed?! I think not!


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TAFKASH
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29 Mar 2005, 7:43 pm

Sarcastic_Name wrote:
By the way, TAFKASH, not ALL Christian churches demand your money. My church just encourages it if you're a member.


They "encourage" it - I like that :lol:. "Now there's no pressure, really - you don't have to give us your money.... Its strictly your choice.... *cough*youllburninhellifyoudontthough*cough*cough* Like I said... no pressure......." :wink: Listen matey - if the churches, ALL churches, weren't in it for the money and control over your life, there wouldn't be any point in them being there - that simple. They'd all be down the flea market trying to sell you knocked-off watches and mobile phones instead.

thechadmaster wrote:
Brain washed?! I think not!


Of course you're not brain washed..... You just unthinkingly and unquestioningly accept any load of old pony spouted at you by some old Polish gimmer, irrespective of its content or meaning, and unflinchingly base your actions, beliefs and entire value system around it..... No, nothing like brainwashed in the slightest..... :wink:


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Sarcastic_Name
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29 Mar 2005, 10:54 pm

I'm having with this. How about the rest of you?

thechadmaster wrote:

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Brain washed?! I think not!


That's a pretty weak defense considering your someone who claims not to be brainwashed. I was expecting a more detailed response than that. Like, quoting random scriptures that make me seem unjust or anti-Christ. But that, honestly, you just seem to be in denial. Like a blind man convinced he can see. Going on, TAFKASH, you seem to be convinced of the opposite of whatever it is thechadmaster "believes". Honestly, do you think a church could run without some source of money? And again, they really only encourage it. It's very relaxed about money, it's the last thing mentioned. That's all I have to say for now. 8)


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ElfMan
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29 Mar 2005, 11:11 pm

Sarcastic Name

Why are you statements littered with put-downs? It looks to me like you are playing Tafkash and Chadmaster off against each other. If your queeries are genuine how about some diplomicy?

How about we go back to discussing our differences instead of arguing about who is write before this thread gets locked and no-one has the opportunity to express their thoughts on this matter.


ElfMan



Sarcastic_Name
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29 Mar 2005, 11:31 pm

Sorry it sounded like that. What I said obout TAFKASH and thechadmaster having different beliefs was meant to be seen as an observation. And about the put-downs, I didn't think of them in that way. Sorry again. I tend to be observational in a somewhat pessimistic way. Then again, it's always a little fun to argue. This has become more of a debate than a discussion, in my opinoion. Ahhhh....
I think it's time someone attempt to bring us back to the original topic at hand. This could go too far. ElfMan has a point.


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ElfMan
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29 Mar 2005, 11:39 pm

Thanks Sarcastic Name

No harm done I'm sure. And yes my intentions were to nip it in the butt before things got obscure. I do want to say too that your points are relevent, just a little personal thats all.

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30 Mar 2005, 2:04 am

ElfMan wrote:
And yes my intentions were to nip it in the butt before things got obscure.


erm... sorry to be pedantic, but the phrase is "nip it in the bud" and not "butt". gave me a cracking good laugh first thing this morning, though - ta!



thechadmaster
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30 Mar 2005, 7:07 am

Sarcastic_Name wrote:
I'm having with this. How about the rest of you?

thechadmaster wrote:
Quote:
Brain washed?! I think not!


That's a pretty weak defense considering your someone who claims not to be brainwashed. I was expecting a more detailed response than that. Like, quoting random scriptures that make me seem unjust or anti-Christ. But that, honestly, you just seem to be in denial. Like a blind man convinced he can see. Going on, TAFKASH, you seem to be convinced of the opposite of whatever it is thechadmaster "believes". Honestly, do you think a church could run without some source of money? And again, they really only encourage it. It's very relaxed about money, it's the last thing mentioned. That's all I have to say for now. 8)

I Believe because i WANT to believe, not b-cuz someone sez i will go to hell


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Glenn
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30 Mar 2005, 9:20 am

I do hope this thread doesnt get locked1 I find it fascinating, if puzzling (please see my previous post, on page 5 of this topic for the reasons why!).

I would be really grateful if someone could answer the frollowing queries, as I personally find a lot of the statements difficult to comprehend (and may I say that by “answer”, I am asking for a reasoned reply , supported by rational explanations; not just by a suggestion that we have been ‘ordered’ to believe thus.. by God, the Vatican, or any other “authority”. Because surely, if you believe that a God created you, and chose to give you an intelligent brain and the ability to reason ( which sets humans above the simple beasts of the field,) you must believe that God intended you to use his gifts. You would not want to insult him, surely, by refusing to use them as he intended?

My questions are:-
1) Why would an omnipotent god who is the creator and essence of the whole cosmos care a hoot whether his creatures accept him, believe in him or worship him? Unless of course he suffers fromn the all-too-human faults of vanity and jealousy (as I have said before) ! Surely a loving God would be more interested in the happiness and wellbeing of the beings he created. Men can’t harm God, but they can harm each other; wouldnt God therefore concern himself with their actions and motives towards each other?
2) Why would a God who you presumably believe created all mankind (including the atheists as well as those of other religions) condemn to hell a person who, although not a Christsian of any denomination, is neither a sinner or nor an evildoer, but who in fact seeks to do good ? For example I have been fortunate enough to be present at some public lectures, and also some teaching sessions for Buddhists, given by the Dalai Lama. Now you may not share his beliefs, and he himself certainly would never claim to be infallible or to know everything, but it is difficult to inagine a more positive, caring and joyful man who has devoted his life to helping others. (He also has an infectious sense of humour) To the best of ny knowledge he has never harmed anyone or caused pain. But he doesnt accept the existence of God or recognise Christ as either divine or his saviour. Would such a man be destined for hell by your God? At the risk of sounding offensive, I wouldnt find such an irrationonal, vindictive god worth worshipping.
3) Even given that there are evil people, sinners who have caused immense pain and suffering in this world, their crimes - however extensive - are FINITE ....even if only because the are human and at some point they will die! How can a God who is said to be both just and forgiving condemn a sinner to infinite punishment (hell) for a finite sin?
And finally
4) We all expect to enjoy the right to believe as we see fit. What I don’t understand though is why anyone should be offended by others who believe different things; or why anyone should think they have a right to try to browbeat others or coerce them into changing their ideas. An interesting discussion is fine; but why do some people seem to find it offensive that others have different religious beliefs?

Glenn
(who is keeping fingers crossed that someone will reply!)



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30 Mar 2005, 9:27 am

vetivert wrote:
ElfMan wrote:
And yes my intentions were to nip it in the butt before things got obscure.


erm... sorry to be pedantic, but the phrase is "nip it in the bud" and not "butt". gave me a cracking good laugh first thing this morning, though - ta!


No offence taken. I love it when people point out to me how funny I am. Especially when I have missed it. Can I leave it as 'butt' can I, please?

ElfMan



Glenn
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30 Mar 2005, 9:37 am

ElfMan wrote:
vetivert wrote:
ElfMan wrote:
And yes my intentions were to nip it in the butt before things got obscure.


erm... sorry to be pedantic, but the phrase is "nip it in the bud" and not "butt". gave me a cracking good laugh first thing this morning, though - ta!


No offence taken. I love it when people point out to me how funny I am. Especially when I have missed it. Can I leave it as 'butt' can I, please?

ElfMan


Oh, vetivert, do leave it! I love the image of butt being nipped ... much better than the original version!
Glenn



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30 Mar 2005, 10:27 am

This is simply amazing! This is a near mirror image of my family, quarreling with each other.

Catholicism had a huge hand in ripping apart my mother's side of the family. I can just state what I witness from the hardcore Catholics in my family. They seem cold, arrogant, judge people based on monetary wealth and things that they have. They put their faith in THINGS, statues, trinkets, bottles of water 'blessed' by the pope. I have attented some masses and it feels like the love has been let out of the air. The whole thing is very repetetition based and seems very unmeaningful.
Catholicism is not the oldest religion in the world yet they seem to be one of the most intollerant of others.

I believe that there is a strong force at work in the world today. Love and respect have been obscured by illusions of what people think is good. Lots of loose sexual practises and behaviour have become more accepted. Money crimes are punished harsher than murder and rape crimes. I don't know what the world is comming to but I stay positive in my belief that there is something watching everything and it is good. Religion intollerance and love for money kill more people on this earth than anything else.

On a side note:

Add an O in 'God' and you get 'Good'. addition = positive

Subtract a 'D' in 'Devil' and you get 'Evil' subtraction = negative

hmmm... interesting, anyone else ever notice that before?



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30 Mar 2005, 11:10 am

Quote:
teaching sessions for Buddhists, given by the Dalai Lama. Now you may not share his beliefs,
Budda did not die to forgive mankind.


Also, this topic was loked for about a day or so, apparently i pissed alot of people off


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ElfMan
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30 Mar 2005, 7:58 pm

Ok I've been silent long enough. This may come out sounding like a rant because I have a lot of sore emotions when it comes to churches and 'christians'.
I grew up going to church every sunday. My dad who during the week would beat my mother and my sister up, would turn on his christian charm on a Sunday at church.
Which is not the Sabbath as defined by God himself by the way! God himself intructed us to keep the Sabbath day holy, but somehow once again some churches justify going against God when its convenient.
This makes me feel decieved.

I attended Sunday school where they tought me that Noah built an ark and he put 2 of each animal on board.
Here's what it actually says:- "Take with you SEVEN of every kind of CLEAN animal, a male and it's mate, and TWO of every kind of UNCLEAN animal, a male and it's mate, and also SEVEN of every kind of bird, male and female to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth.
Genisis 7:2-3

So I feel decieved again.

And here's another thing that no christian has ever wanted to explain to me. :- "The son's of GOD saw that the daughters of MEN were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose."
Genisis 6:2

Sounds to me like the Sons of God were quite promiscous. Not forgetting that monogomus relationships were not heard of in those days.

"The Nephilim (Giants) were on the earth in those days - and also afterward - when the sons of GOD went to the daughters of MEN and had children by them. They were the hero's of old."
Genisis 6:4

So was there more than one race on earth in the beginning and only one is spoken of in the church? Yes. Why? It would answer so many of the insest questions that surround the story of Adam and Eve. The children of the son's of God were the Nephilim - the Giants. Son of God Daddy + Daughter of Man Mummy have baby - baby is a Giant. Could not get clearer.
My church only ever taught me about the human race and how God had made earth SPECIFICALLY for us. It never mentioned that our race began from the combination of TWO races, or maybe even more.

Decieved again.

I have hundreds of examples like this. And who are these hero's of old that get a mention. Could they be the hero's that so called myths are based on. I believe it could be so.

And how about the clay tablets that where found in Sumiria (spl?) that date back before the bible but have the same stories as the bible but with a few little differences such as names. How could this be so? They are very real.

And Gallilao. He was at deaths door many a time at the hands of the Catholics. Why? Because he told them things were different scientifically to what they wanted to believe which was based on nothing but inflated egos. It wasn't until way after his death that we began to grasp his ideas. This man was a great man who had his talents buried by the fears imposed on him by his church. He spent many years of his life laying low and keeping his mouth shut out of fear. This man probably had so much more to offer. Sad thing is he is not the only one.

There are so many ways in which the CHURCH has violated it's own credibilities. It brings it on itself with all it's contradictions and changing it's mind to suit whatever.

And My personal experiences with church just tops it off. When I was a teenager living on the streets, I would go to the church that I grew up in at night because they always had free supper. Everybody knew me. They knew my sercumstances and yet not one of them even offered me a meal. I was their scapegoat when ever anything was stolen or vadalised. I was exorcised of demons because I was just so evil apparently.

Dispite this I still spent 7 years as a devote christian. Now days I just shake my head at that.
My brother in law was a Lutheran Pastor. He has been so hurt by the system it's not funny. I won't get into what he has been put through as it is personal to him. I will say he has been treated Very Very WRONGLY!
My church like many more out there beleived that they were right and every other faith was wrong.

As far as I know God himself was the one who made different cultures with different religions that were to mis-understand each other back in the days of Babel. So it's his plan that there are so many faiths. He is more diverse than we will ever understand. His goal here was for us to understand each other but we have to work at it if we want that enough.

Did I mention that Moses had a stutter. And that Aaron was his spokesman. Never see that in the movies.

Oh and just last week my neihbours saw me stimming for the first time. Guess what they did. Before I knew what they were doing they prayed over me and asked jesus to cast the demons out. Gee thanks guys (NOT). They also warned me not to hang out with the guy across the road so much because he is scitzophrenic and demons love to jump around into different bodies. Well my scitzophrenic mate is one of the most down to earth honest and trusting guys I have met in a long time.

I told them I don't want to be hearing that BS again and not to pray any demons out of me!! !

Oh and my gay friends that I knew some years back. They went to church too. They were still figuring out their sexuality but they were living together in what seemed to others as a relationship. Male and female. Because they were living together the church made them get married and because they could not feel comfortable talking about their sexuallity they did just that. They were never meant to get married. It was the wrong thing for them and it set them back years as far as self discovery is concerned.

And my mum and her new husband of about 5 years now. They were living together for a few months before they got married. The church who my step-dad belonged to kicked him out. He had been a big part of this church helping with fundraisers and fianances-budgets. He was on call for any of the little old ladies to do handyman work for them. He was the guy who would drive around and pick up the little old ladies for church and all sorts.

I grew up a beleiver. The churches antics have made me a non-beleiver.
Go figure

ElfMan



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30 Mar 2005, 8:08 pm

Glenn, I thought you asked very interesting questions in your post.

Glenn wrote:
For example I have been fortunate enough to be present at some public lectures, and also some teaching sessions for Buddhists, given by the Dalai Lama. Now you may not share his beliefs, and he himself certainly would never claim to be infallible or to know everything, but it is difficult to inagine a more positive, caring and joyful man who has devoted his life to helping others. (He also has an infectious sense of humour) To the best of ny knowledge he has never harmed anyone or caused pain. But he doesnt accept the existence of God or recognise Christ as either divine or his saviour. Would such a man be destined for hell by your God?


I asked my Born-Again Christian friend the same type of question once. She told me that Mahatma Ghandi is burning in hell right now! She said it was because he wasn't 'saved', but according to her, all of the murderers on death row who are 'saved' go to heaven. The logic of organised religion makes no sense to me.

Glenn wrote:
Even given that there are evil people, sinners who have caused immense pain and suffering in this world, their crimes - however extensive - are FINITE ....even if only because the are human and at some point they will die! How can a God who is said to be both just and forgiving condemn a sinner to infinite punishment (hell) for a finite sin?


Good point! I would like to add that a God who can condemn people to hell for an eternity is worse than every sinner in history combined. If that is indeed the case, and Christians are correct, I would rather spend an eternity in hell than in heaven in the presence of such a 'loving' God.

So, could somebody answer Glenn's questions because I would really like to know the answers too.