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Misslizard
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14 Nov 2012, 12:50 pm

Where's ArrantPariah on this?
Usually this "Secession" talk causes him to emerge from under his bridge.



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14 Nov 2012, 12:56 pm

Misslizard wrote:
Where's ArrantPariah on this?
Usually this "Secession" talk causes him to emerge from under his bridge.


What!

Are you accusing ArrantPariah of being a troll!?



Misslizard
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14 Nov 2012, 1:43 pm

Who me,never!I :lol: ^^^^^



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14 Nov 2012, 1:51 pm

I've read some comments from people talking about how out of their enormous value and pride in democracy, they voted to secede from the US. Interesting, a democratic election takes place, people don't like the result, want to leave to preserve democracy... DOES NOT COMPUTE


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14 Nov 2012, 2:03 pm

Vigilans wrote:
I've read some comments from people talking about how out of their enormous value and pride in democracy, they voted to secede from the US. Interesting, a democratic election takes place, people don't like the result, want to leave to preserve democracy... DOES NOT COMPUTE


Exactly. If the losing side in an election then gets to either dictate their terms or try to disqualify themselves from being bound by the election results, through succession or some other means, it sets a very dangerous precedent.

Here's a very relevant (and, I think, wise) quote from Abraham Lincoln's first innaugural address:

"From questions of this class spring all our constitutional controversies, and we divide upon them into majorities and minorities. If the minority will not acquiesce, the majority must, or the Government must cease. There is no other alternative, for continuing the Government is acquiescence on one side or the other. If a minority in such case will secede rather than acquiesce, they make a precedent which in turn will divide and ruin them, for a minority of their own will secede from them whenever a majority refuses to be controlled by such minority. For instance, why may not any portion of a new confederacy a year or two hence arbitrarily secede again, precisely as portions of the present Union now claim to secede from it? All who cherish disunion sentiments are now being educated to the exact temper of doing this."

By the way, at least in one case this is exactly what happened. Residents of western Virginia were not happy after Virginia succeeded from the Union during the Civil War. As a result, they carved out the western part of Virginia returned to the Union as the new state of West Virginia.



Last edited by ScrewyWabbit on 14 Nov 2012, 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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14 Nov 2012, 2:10 pm

ScrewyWabbit wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
I've read some comments from people talking about how out of their enormous value and pride in democracy, they voted to secede from the US. Interesting, a democratic election takes place, people don't like the result, want to leave to preserve democracy... DOES NOT COMPUTE


Exactly. If the losing side in an election then gets to either dictate their terms or try to disqualify themselves from being bound by the election results, through succession or some other means, it sets a very dangerous precedent.

Here's a very relevant (and, I think, wise) quote from Abraham Lincoln's first innaugural address:

"From questions of this class spring all our constitutional controversies, and we divide upon them into majorities and minorities. If the minority will not acquiesce, the majority must, or the Government must cease. There is no other alternative, for continuing the Government is acquiescence on one side or the other. If a minority in such case will secede rather than acquiesce, they make a precedent which in turn will divide and ruin them, for a minority of their own will secede from them whenever a majority refuses to be controlled by such minority. For instance, why may not any portion of a new confederacy a year or two hence arbitrarily secede again, precisely as portions of the present Union now claim to secede from it? All who cherish disunion sentiments are now being educated to the exact temper of doing this."


A great contributor to the Confederacy's defeat was their unwillingness to cooperate with the CSA federal government or even with other Confederate state governments. I recall there being instances where states threatened to secede from the CSA if certain motions were passed


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14 Nov 2012, 2:20 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
DiscardedWhisper wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
AspieRogue wrote:
What do you people make of this? Obviously it's chances of success are < 0.01%(less than 1 in 10,000). What I do think just might happen though, if this continues forward, is a military coup against President Obama.

lol.

Quote:
The petitions for permission to secede will be denied for sure, but it is a public way of protesting the newly elected Obama administration. It is a public demonstration of No Confidence. Just take it for what it is. A public ploy to make a political point.
And a bit racist.


It's not automatically considered racist to find fault with Barack Obama.


But asking for secession clearly is.

I mean, really. All of the previous US presidents and the next will have people that find fault with them. But of course, it is the black dude who got the first threats of secession just after being elected 4 years ago.


I'm sorry but this is not true at all. Texas hasn't shut about seceding for the last 150 years. But that's not my point.

As was said above, these people don't expect these secession petitions to be honored. What they are doing is demonstrating no confidence in the President. They do not share his ideology or approve of his plan for fixing the economy, which involves extreme govt overreach and redistribution of wealth via massive tax hikes. You do not have to have a certain skin color to subscribe to an ideal of fiscal responsibility, nor to subscribe to a big govt philosophy.

I don't see anyone crying racism but you and a few other liberals.



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14 Nov 2012, 2:20 pm

Vigilans wrote:
ScrewyWabbit wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
I've read some comments from people talking about how out of their enormous value and pride in democracy, they voted to secede from the US. Interesting, a democratic election takes place, people don't like the result, want to leave to preserve democracy... DOES NOT COMPUTE


Exactly. If the losing side in an election then gets to either dictate their terms or try to disqualify themselves from being bound by the election results, through succession or some other means, it sets a very dangerous precedent.

Here's a very relevant (and, I think, wise) quote from Abraham Lincoln's first innaugural address:

"From questions of this class spring all our constitutional controversies, and we divide upon them into majorities and minorities. If the minority will not acquiesce, the majority must, or the Government must cease. There is no other alternative, for continuing the Government is acquiescence on one side or the other. If a minority in such case will secede rather than acquiesce, they make a precedent which in turn will divide and ruin them, for a minority of their own will secede from them whenever a majority refuses to be controlled by such minority. For instance, why may not any portion of a new confederacy a year or two hence arbitrarily secede again, precisely as portions of the present Union now claim to secede from it? All who cherish disunion sentiments are now being educated to the exact temper of doing this."


A great contributor to the Confederacy's defeat was their unwillingness to cooperate with the CSA federal government or even with other Confederate state governments. I recall there being instances where states threatened to secede from the CSA if certain motions were passed


In fact, West Virginia came into existence precisely this way - the counties of western Virginia succeeded from Virginia and returned to the Union as the new state of West Virginia. But yes, also you are correct, the Confederacy was hurt by lack of a strong central government. Of course, a strong central government (at least on the question of slavery) was the main aspect of the Union that those who started the Confederacy were dissatisfied with.



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14 Nov 2012, 2:23 pm

ScrewyWabbit wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
ScrewyWabbit wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
I've read some comments from people talking about how out of their enormous value and pride in democracy, they voted to secede from the US. Interesting, a democratic election takes place, people don't like the result, want to leave to preserve democracy... DOES NOT COMPUTE


Exactly. If the losing side in an election then gets to either dictate their terms or try to disqualify themselves from being bound by the election results, through succession or some other means, it sets a very dangerous precedent.

Here's a very relevant (and, I think, wise) quote from Abraham Lincoln's first innaugural address:

"From questions of this class spring all our constitutional controversies, and we divide upon them into majorities and minorities. If the minority will not acquiesce, the majority must, or the Government must cease. There is no other alternative, for continuing the Government is acquiescence on one side or the other. If a minority in such case will secede rather than acquiesce, they make a precedent which in turn will divide and ruin them, for a minority of their own will secede from them whenever a majority refuses to be controlled by such minority. For instance, why may not any portion of a new confederacy a year or two hence arbitrarily secede again, precisely as portions of the present Union now claim to secede from it? All who cherish disunion sentiments are now being educated to the exact temper of doing this."


A great contributor to the Confederacy's defeat was their unwillingness to cooperate with the CSA federal government or even with other Confederate state governments. I recall there being instances where states threatened to secede from the CSA if certain motions were passed


In fact, West Virginia came into existence precisely this way - the counties of western Virginia succeeded from Virginia and returned to the Union as the new state of West Virginia. But yes, also you are correct, the Confederacy was hurt by lack of a strong central government. Of course, a strong central government (at least on the question of slavery) was the main aspect of the Union that those who started the Confederacy were dissatisfied with.


I think it was South Carolina that threatened to secede from the Confederacy if slaves were armed and given freedom in return for fighting for the CSA


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14 Nov 2012, 2:57 pm

DiscardedWhisper wrote:
I'm sorry but this is not true at all. Texas hasn't shut about seceding for the last 150 years. But that's not my point.

As was said above, these people don't expect these secession petitions to be honored. What they are doing is demonstrating no confidence in the President. They do not share his ideology or approve of his plan for fixing the economy, which involves extreme govt overreach and redistribution of wealth via massive tax hikes. You do not have to have a certain skin color to subscribe to an ideal of fiscal responsibility, nor to subscribe to a big govt philosophy.

I don't see anyone crying racism but you and a few other liberals.


The problem is this - if you look at the total number of people who have signed these petitions, its relatively minor as compared to a) the number of people who do not like Obama or did not vote for him but more importantly b) the number of people in any modern presidential election who do not like the winner. In other words, there's nothing exceptional about the quantity of unhappy people, only the reaction of some unhappy people i.e. these ridiculous petitions. The idea that these petitions are merely a way for unhappy people to express "no confidence" in the President doesn't hold much water - that's what the election was for and their votes were already counted. Plus, nothing like this (as far as I know) has happened before. So we're either in a situation where either an extreme reaction is justified or there's something more to it than mere unhappiness. And I, for one, do not see any legitimate disagreements with the President that would be so large as to justify such extreme unhappiness - at least as compared to the types of and severity of disagreements that the opposition normally has with a sitting president.



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14 Nov 2012, 4:39 pm

Seabass wrote:
Fo' real. Especially with events that are coming up. *COUGH* crash of the dollar *COUGH*

Wow. This post brings me memories of when I wasted my time in prophecies forums. OOH The nostalgia. Any other wild doom mongering you'd like to share?


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14 Nov 2012, 4:41 pm

CSBurks wrote:
abacacus wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
abacacus wrote:
Let 'em moan. Not only will it never happen, if it did somehow pan out then said states would be begging for the remaining states to take 'em back within five years.


We would not know unless the secession were permitted. The first time secession was tried 620,000 Americans died a bloody nasty death and 1.5 million were maimed and torn. This in a country with a population of only 30 million.

ruveyn


I can be pretty sure. I'll wager a good 90% of the people signing these petitions don't know the slightest thing about how screwed they'd be if they became an independent country, especially about how much their government would be forced to grow and how much their taxes would [/i]need[/i] to be raised in order to maintain things they never really think of like roads and education.


Taxes would go up, but they wouldn't be paying federal taxes.


Erm... yeah, they would. They'd just be paid to a new country.


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ScrewyWabbit
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14 Nov 2012, 5:39 pm

abacacus wrote:
CSBurks wrote:
abacacus wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
abacacus wrote:
Let 'em moan. Not only will it never happen, if it did somehow pan out then said states would be begging for the remaining states to take 'em back within five years.


We would not know unless the secession were permitted. The first time secession was tried 620,000 Americans died a bloody nasty death and 1.5 million were maimed and torn. This in a country with a population of only 30 million.

ruveyn


I can be pretty sure. I'll wager a good 90% of the people signing these petitions don't know the slightest thing about how screwed they'd be if they became an independent country, especially about how much their government would be forced to grow and how much their taxes would [/i]need[/i] to be raised in order to maintain things they never really think of like roads and education.


Taxes would go up, but they wouldn't be paying federal taxes.


Erm... yeah, they would. They'd just be paid to a new country.


Yup. State, county and local governments are usually subsidized one way or the other by federal tax dollars. Take that money away and your state/county/local taxes are going to go up even if you no longer pay federal tax. In fact, if you live in an area that tends to have less money come back from the federal government than what it pays in federal taxes, and assuming your new country maintains the same level of services, chances are you'll be paying more total tax than you were paying as part of the U.S.



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14 Nov 2012, 6:46 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
Seabass wrote:
Fo' real. Especially with events that are coming up. *COUGH* crash of the dollar *COUGH*

Wow. This post brings me memories of when I wasted my time in prophecies forums. OOH The nostalgia. Any other wild doom mongering you'd like to share?


I just wanted to warn y'all. You know, since it's a fact that the value of the dollar has been steadily decreasing. That inflation continues to skyrocket. That the Federal Reserve continues to further print out Federal Reserve notes, aka the "dollar", even though we don't have the money to pay back what are basically loans we've made out to the Fed. Did y'all know the Fed isn't an official government agency? Yep, it's pretty much private. Yet still tied to our goevernment.

http://www.save-a-patriot.org/files/view/frcourt.html

Why do you even have such an avatar and yet refuse to question the world around you?



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14 Nov 2012, 8:15 pm

MDD123 wrote:
Translation: "Our side lost the election, wah!"


Exactly.

People who favor secession who likely voted for Romney, or didn't vote for Obama or Romney but wanted Romney to win, are probably still in denial over Obama winning re-election.


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14 Nov 2012, 9:10 pm

ScrewyWabbit wrote:
DiscardedWhisper wrote:
I'm sorry but this is not true at all. Texas hasn't shut about seceding for the last 150 years. But that's not my point.

As was said above, these people don't expect these secession petitions to be honored. What they are doing is demonstrating no confidence in the President. They do not share his ideology or approve of his plan for fixing the economy, which involves extreme govt overreach and redistribution of wealth via massive tax hikes. You do not have to have a certain skin color to subscribe to an ideal of fiscal responsibility, nor to subscribe to a big govt philosophy.

I don't see anyone crying racism but you and a few other liberals.


The problem is this - if you look at the total number of people who have signed these petitions, its relatively minor as compared to a) the number of people who do not like Obama or did not vote for him but more importantly b) the number of people in any modern presidential election who do not like the winner. In other words, there's nothing exceptional about the quantity of unhappy people, only the reaction of some unhappy people i.e. these ridiculous petitions. The idea that these petitions are merely a way for unhappy people to express "no confidence" in the President doesn't hold much water - that's what the election was for and their votes were already counted. Plus, nothing like this (as far as I know) has happened before. So we're either in a situation where either an extreme reaction is justified or there's something more to it than mere unhappiness. And I, for one, do not see any legitimate disagreements with the President that would be so large as to justify such extreme unhappiness - at least as compared to the types of and severity of disagreements that the opposition normally has with a sitting president.


Obama only barely won a majority of the popular vote. Which means at least 49% of voters did not approve his job enough to cast a ballot NOT to re-elect him. Just because you don't see a legitimate reason to disapprove of Obama's re-election, does not mean others feel the same. You may not feel the expressions of "no confidence" hold water. But these people are entitled to their opinion just as much as you are and they have every right to petition the white house, especially since the White House gives them the tools to do so. You're here, expressing your opinion. What's the difference, except that you're calling these people racists, which is dirty pool, as I see it.

And that's my opinion, see how that works?