Free speech remains, Allah willing

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These are new adverts on the New York Subway by the American Freedom Defense Initiative.

Don't you worry, ansars of Islam, there are other ads all around New York by the Hamas-linked (and insultingly, preposterously named) "Council of American-Islamic Relations" where they tell lovely lies about Islam on the one hand and, well, you know what's on the other hand, you just won't admit it.

May Allah protect the U.S. First Amendment. Peace be upon it.

Would you ever post about a BNP or EDL ad? I guess the answer is yes based on this thread.

Tommy Robinson is close allies with Pam Geller, and was a guest speaker at her larger group's 2012 council in September. This is essentially an ad from the American version of the EDL, and I think you said the EDL were bad people because they hate Muslims for being Muslim IIRC, so...

Two can play at this game; one can post all sorts of quotes from the Bible as well as the Talmud... I wonder, if someone did post snippets from the Talmud of that type I wonder if the City of New York would allow them to be posted. I somehow doubt it.

I would point at that sign laugh and say BRING IT ON!! !

If they were prevented from speaking out about an issue, yes I probably would (the BNP is a legal political party and shouldn't be hushed up; the EDL also deserve their right to free speech too) . Although I'd distance myself from both of them, frankly. Mainly because the BNP are barely reformed neo-Nazis, and the EDL have massive problems with the far-right and being racist / anti-Muslim in general.

Having said that, I definitely think that Robert Spencer linking himself (and the AFDI) with the EDL is very, very stupid and unwise. He's a street hooligan and thug - not a decent politician. They would be lot better off without him.

I can't say I have any problem with the content of the advert either. It links Islamic scripture with present-day atrocities.



I support the right of CAIR to lie about Islam, don't I? I welcome their billboards as much as I welcome the AFDI's.



As I said, I think it's a very bad idea, given the EDL's history and reputation here in the UK. It's something that the AFDI can very much do without, IMO. It will stigmatise them.



There are some people involved with the AFDI that I have a lot of time for. The EDL and that illiterate football hooligan isn't one of them. (He parted ways with the British Freedom Party - i.e. yet another far-right micro-party - because he could see that he was going nowhere.)



Do the AFDI go and march through Muslim areas full of drink? Do they protest outside random mosques? Do they turn up at the houses of Muslim Congressmen mob handed? Having said that, a lot of the violence associated with the EDL isn't exactly entirely their fault, as we all know.



If they can weave Talmudic or Biblical scripture into a poster as artfully as the AFDI have, I'm sure they'll have no problem.

By the way, the Bible in and of itself was the source of untold massacres, killings and terror centuries ago, but we've moved on from them. Israel is fighting a defensive operation for its own survival - it does not see Arabs in general as the enemy.

I support CAIR's right to free speech, so I'd love to see an attack ad from them. Perhaps it could be like a little competition!

Last edited by Tequila on 05 Jan 2013, 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Just to show my dedication to free speech, here's an ad from CAIR.



(FYI, CAIR are linked to an organisation that calls for the annihilation of Israel and the killing of every last Jew on Earth.)

You did not make the OP with that in mind.



Why can you discredit a group linking them to Hamas, while disregarding my shown link to the EDL, a group you have publicly denounced previously?



When you stop with the name-calling, insinuations, and "intimidation" of people who disagree with your views on Islam on this forum (it seems to be a problem with the anti-Islam posters on this forum), I'll stop considering you just as bad as the jihadis and say you support differing opinions and free speech. Different groups use synonyms for "infidel." Apparently yours is 'ansar' with (still my favorite) "multi-culti left-winger". You're not getting any major respect from me when you use Blood and Honour language like that or "secular ghettoization." We're not talking about terrorists/gangs committing crime, we're talking about entire groups of people being branded with the same brush, despite having an ocean between us that differs culture and status.



They should have been stigmatized already when Geller wrote an article glorifying the EDL...



They helped spearhead the protest against the "Ground Zero Mosque," which wasn't at Ground Zero, and is none of my concern as long as they did everything according to the law. If people asked me to move my site after all the hoopla and context behind it, I wouldn't move either, as would any other reasonable person, since "it's offensive" means nothing.

You could side yourself with numerous Jewish groups regarding Islamic terrorism. Jewish groups have denounced the AFDI's tactics (see below), and I wonder what you will do if an admitted Jew on PPR questions your views on Islam. A majority of American Jews tolerate Islam and something like 25% believe in the threat of Sharia law, unlike what the posters on PPR would like for you to believe. Instead, you decide to be with a group whose leader thinks Muslims were secretly putting halal in turkeys during Thanksgiving, believes Hitler was inspired by Islam, and says words like 'Judenrat' and 'dhimmi' for Jews who dissent from her tactics. That last part alone should put up red flags that you should stay away from them. Anyone who misuses these terms should be shunned. I'm under the impression you'll side with anyone against Islam regardless of credibility or reputation from what I have seen.

There are times when I've had to concede (not here, but elsewhere) that Nick Griffin was right about something or other - which, if I recall, was unrelated to Islam. I felt very queasy about having to say that about him, but I feel that way when I read (and agree with) some of the contributors in the Guardian when I'm in a local supermarket café (excellent food there, by the way). I agree with them, but I don't have to like them as people, just as I don't have to like anyone. I might agree with the Catholic Church on some things (though God knows on what), but that doesn't mean that I have any time for the Catholic Church, just as I don't have any time for the BNP, Jobbik, Hamas or most of the current Government. (Though Eric Pickles doesn't seem too bad, with his fat little face.)



"Intimidation"? Do you feel intimidated? I don't feel intimidated. Incredulous at some of the disingenuous nonsense that is posted, perhaps, but I couldn't intimidate anyone if I tried.

Er, no, mate. CAIR are lying about Islam, they are linked to a terrorist organisation that wants to kill all Jews and I will point that out here, tomorrow morning over a full English and whenever I damn well please. I never mentioned anyone else in that statement. I did refer to certain people here as "ansars" though, but it wasn't you, so you can sleep easy tonight.

CAIR are lying about Islam because they are pretending that Islamic terrorist violence has nothing to do with Islam, just like, oh, I don't know, British nationalist terrorism has nothing to do with British nationalism or something related to Britain in general. I'm thinking of loyalist terrorism in NI here. One thing that pissed me off about Northern Ireland is the tendency of English people to write off loyalist terrorism as not being related to Britain itself, when they were the ones going on about "Irish terrorism".

I'm definitely not saying that anything other than a tiny minority of Muslims are terrorists, or that a minority of Muslims sympathise with Muslim terrorism. Firstly, because it's not true (at least not in the UK or in Western Europe) because the statistics show that it's a long way from being true, and most Muslims are peaceful (although I think that Islam itself is a bad ideology, I don't think people are bad just for belonging to a certain religion, or good for being in another one). I don't believe that most Muslims are terrorists for one second, and personal experience backs this up. Most terrorists nowadays do happen to be Muslims though, and this is unfortunate (to say the least) for those people that want a peaceful life much like the rest of us, mainly because they get a lot of slack from ignorant EDL dickheads and other people like that. Just because I support the BNP or EDL's right to free speech does not mean that I don't regard them as a stain on humanity. I support good old Andy Choudary's right to free speech too (he's a hero of mine, oh yes he is), and the Muslim Council of Britain (although not on the taxpayer) or CAIR or even Hamas. No, I think Al-Aqsa TV should be regularly broadcast on British TV. Especially the chilling TV programmes for little Gazan children where they say that they want to "eat the Jews". It'll be a lot more educational and informative than most things you get on the Bee Bee Cee these days.

There are lots of very good people who happen to be Muslims, but that doesn't mean that Islamic scripture and elements of radical Islam aren't responsible for terrorist attacks. CAIR are lying when they try to pretend, like so many of their brethren do, that Islamic terrorism has nothing to do with Islam, even when the Islamic terrorists quote Islamic scripture and have a decades-long history of worship and celebration. I'm sorry, I'm just not buying it.



When I threaten to kill forum members for disagreeing with my views, when I threaten to blow up their towns and cities for this "insult" to my beliefs, only then in truth can you properly consider me as bad as the jihadis. Until then, you do an excellent line in disingenuous hyperbole. Can I have it with fries? And where's my ketchup?



I do support differing opinions and free speech. All the time. I'm Mr. Free Speech, me.

I wouldn't want to shut certain members up here. They have an interesting take on some things. I might even agree with them sometimes, or not strongly disagree other times. Sometimes, though, my opinions and theirs conflict. Which is why there are all these threads about Islam and Israel. For me, I consider these issues (along with a few other things that are important to me personally) the very cornerstone of our continued prosperity and security here in the West. Some people might consider fracking, or government expenses, or NATO, or the Chinese the biggest threat. I can't speak for them. I speak for myself only. I have spoken, I speak and I shall continue to speak. (A certain member here will love that.)

I have the right to viscerally disagree with everyone, though. I demand that right stoutly (might be to do with the beer), stubbornly and strongly.



You can consider it to mean "helper of Islam" (it refers to that great man Muhammad's travails in the 7th century.)



I can understand that. I've met some pretty horrid "multi-culti right-wingers" as well. (They were in the Conservative Party.)

Anyway, I can go one better. How about "multiculti bleeding heart"?

As for the descriptor itself - it's not necessarily about multiculturalism. The idea of it in itself is absolutely brilliant. I wish we had a society where everyone brought their different bits and pieces to the pot, and a society of low crime, tolerance and general neighbourliness prevailed. Toronto was a bit like that, and you should have seen the food - well, the Chinese/Vietnamese food. When multiculturalism is for real, and it really does work, and it's not segregationist or divisive and everyone respects everyone else, it works. What the descriptor's really about is racism and cultural relativism, and not expecting certain groups to live up to our values. Just as we wouldn't tolerate white men cruising around and raping teenage girls, we shouldn't expect people from other ethnic groups to go about indulging in similar behaviour either. We're not as different as those who make money from perpetuating such differences make out.

I want that society, and I want it to include Muslims. I will fight anyone who says that Muslims are not equal British Citizens. They are a part of the tapestry of my land. They are welcome here. I reject Geert Wilders and his ravings that he wants to see many Muslims leaving the Netherlands. (I agree with a fair bit of what he says about Islam, but I don't agree with his politics.)

Incidentally, you're more likely to find me vocally defending a person of Muslim background from a bunch of drunk idiots with EDL-type opinions than otherwise.



Blood and Honour language? Well, I see your point in that some people from that, erm, milieu use that sort of language, but those kinds of people use the Union Jack. Are you going to stigmatise me for being racist for using the Union Jack as well now? Oh, and using words like 'mutliculti' is commonplace amongst conservatives.

Intriguingly, when I actually mention real, bona fide fascist groups that are on the rise in mainland Europe, I am told to stop whinging by left-wing "anti-fascists" on here and to go to these countries if I feel so passionately about what is being allowed to happen there.

I do believe that there is a ghettoisation in parts of this country. What you and I disagree on is who I think is mainly responsible for it. Hint: the Muslims aren't in any way solely to blame. In fact, I'm not sure I really blame 'em too much for acting as they do, at least not the case of lifestyle.

(cf. British residents in the Costa del Sol. If ever you want to see somewhere utterly depressing and somewhere you can go to slit your wrists, please go there. Perhaps you could then drive up the road to the Tabernas - the site of so many wonderful spaghetti westerns - to do it.)



I don't want Muslims to be branded with the same brush or demonised. I want people to recognise that Islam does have this problem in that its scripture can be and has been used to justify acts of terrorism (Islamic terrorists with long histories in their communities that go back generations have openly quoted from the Quran and Hadiths) and that no amount of flimflam from people with un-denied, open terrorist connections can get away from that.

I believe that there are five major issues that are currently bedevilling Islam, and have done since its creation. a) Their schizophrenic response to terrorism; b) Anti-Semitism; c) The hatred of all things non-Muslim and the inability of many Muslims to integrate and; d) the treatment of women in Islam and the disgusting misogyny that is present in most Muslim countries and, finally; e) the stone age barbarism of Islamic teachings and Sharia, which is embodied most seriously by the charge that any apostates from Islam should be killed.



I read about that. Stupidity knows no national, religious, or ethnic boundaries. Frankly, the woman should be embarrassed she ever wrote that.



It was almost on the very site of Ground Zero.

And, by the way, Park51 stands nearly empty. There's almost nothing happening there. The suit-and-tie jihadists lost on that one, and lost badly. There is no victory for them to trumpet at the site of their conquest.

So you wouldn't object to people demanding a religious site very near the scene of the largest terrorist attack in the history of your nation (which was caused by that religion)? I certainly would. One could say that it's a very deliberate spit in the face of American freedom. There would be no real issue with the site if it was somewhere else (there are mosques and Islamic institutions all over NYC) and the people following up the project were respectful of people's opinions. I could work with people like that, and I might well have some sympathy with them if that where the case.



They were asked to move it by the Mayor of New York even before all the "hoopla and context". They absolutely refused to discuss it from the very beginning. They also called the site "Cordoba House" and planned to open it on September 11th. Are we close yet? Answers on a postcard please.



Fine. My religion is going to kill 3,000 of your people, and I want to make a gloating memorial to the religion that killed them within less than five minutes' walking distance from where they were massacred. I plan to open it on the very day of the year that your people were massacred by adherents of my religion, and I'm also going to name it after the scene of another warlike conquest by my religion. That sounds fair, doesn't it?

You also agree with students being able to label pineapples Muhammad as well I take it? And you would also agree with people being able to label all Muslims as paedophilic terrorist scum? Do remember folks, "it's offensive" means nothing... unless the offended party is likely to have you threatened with violence, beaten up or killed.

Again, Islam is seemingly offended by nearly everything that non-Muslims do, but equally (if not more often) is completely non-offended by far worse things that Muslims do.

Go and do a bit of research on the Saudi desecration of Islamic holy sites, which should be absolutely sacred to Muslims.



What Jewish groups?



We'll get to that when it happens, won't we. I'll debate with that person when they arrive. I don't believe that Jews are superior or better than anyone else in this world. But I can say that, being an atheist.

There are some Jews that believe that Israel shouldn't exist. I listen to the majority opinion of Israeli Jews and not the Neturei Karta lunatics, or those empty-headed imports from the U.S. who seem to know everything about what the Israelis are doing wrong without actually living there for a while.



I tolerate Islam and Islamists. I tolerate the BNP. I don't have to like either of them.



They don't say that that might well change if Islamists get a bigger foothold in the U.S. If the proportion of Muslims in the U.S. remains small, that won't be a problem, especially if these immigrants are well-integrated, spread out, and are not ghettoised.



No, but thank you for the statistics. It's very informative.



I don't think it's really a secret, especially not these days. A lot of supermarkets in Britain do stock halal meat and don't tell their customers about what they're eating (i.e. they don't say whether it's halal or non-halal). I think it's good and healthy that people are aware of this, don't you? It's consumer choice and all that, innit.

By the way: I'm with no other group than UKIP. I used to be a member of NO2ID. Are you going to hold that against me as well?



I believe that Adolf Hitler and Hajj Amin al-Husseini got on very well together, and that they found a kindred spirit in Jew-hatred, yes. Do I think that Hitler was inspired by Islam by itself? No, not really, although he probably liked the idea that non-Aryans felt much like he did about the Jews.



I don't think that's helpful for her or her cause. It has a ring of No True Scotsman about it.



More evidence, please. You might just get me to agree with you.



Did I tell you that there have been times I've sided with Muslim populations against non-Muslims? The Cyprus dispute is a good example, but it's getting late and I need to go and watch my film before I go to sleep. I also have immense sympathy with some Muslims that I've read about online and their immense courage, even f I think they're telling a few fibs (because I sympathise with them a lot). These are my countrymen. I better stop now, as I might go all nationalist on you.

One of the most moving things I remember in my life is standing at a military ceremony of a country that has a star and crescent in its flag (it's a lovely red colour, and a lovely national anthem too). This makes me no ordinary anti-Muslim bigot, I can assure you. It stirred me, and I remembered (and remember) Atatürk. In fact, I consider Atatürk to be one of the most memorable people in the 20th century for what he did for Turkey. That country needs men like him desperately.