What is a sin? Do sins matter? Are you a sinner?

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Avoid anything that can get you thrown in jail. This is my value system.

What - like getting caught!

A wise old man once told me that if you want to steal something, make sure it's really worth stealing just in case you get caught.

Dan: What do you mean, "sin"? What is sin?

Jason: Well, sin [you see] can mean different things to different people, but sin is basically violating God's laws. Or, for argument's sake, we could call sin, you know, murder, rape, bestiality, and we can name a few sins just to say, ok these are things that are wrong.

Dan: Is it a sin to do work on a Sabbath? God's law clearly says that anybody who does work on the Sabbath should be put to death. Is that a sin?

Jason: Well that scripture was a specific law for . . You see when you read the Bible you obviously need to take it into context. Who is it talking to? Why is it saying what it's saying? I think you're quoting Old Testament law that was given to the Jews, is that right?

Dan: It's in . . . it's the Ten Commandments! "Honor [Remember] the sabbath day to keep it holy." The Sabbath day [rule] is part of the Ten Commandments that almost every Christian church views as core to Christian theology.

Jason: Ok, I believe it is important to take off a day during the week to rest, but interestingly that is the one commandment that was not repeated in the New Testament. Did you know that?

Dan: Well ok, so then you're throwing out part of the Old Testament. Christians feel free to pick and choose what they like and don't, right?

Jason: No, no, no. I'm not throwing out anything, but some of the Bible is historical narrative, some of it is poetry, some of it is theology, and the section you just grabbed, I believe, was a section that was a law for the Jews.

Dan: Well, all of the Ten Commandments were laws for the Jews, so . .

Jason: Absolutely.

Dan: So what I'm trying to say is, if a sin is violating God's law, then a sin can be anything, even if humanity thinks it's something good.

Jason: Uh-huh.

Dan: This religion declares that their god says it's something wrong, then it's a sin. So then it's a relative thing. It's a circular argument. I think there's no such thing as sin.

Jason: Hmm.

Dan: There are actions that some human beings, who are not completely healthy, might commit that cause unnecessary harm. And so we have systems of justice, and we might call them crimes, and which we have a prison system to protect ourselves. But to call it "sin" is to strike at the core of what it means to be a human being, and it is a deep insult to humanity. There's no such thing as sin, and we don't need salvation.

Jason: Well "sin" is in the dictionary. It's a term as used by millions of people.

Dan: Yeah, so is the word "ghost." I mean, there's a lot of words that people use, but that doesn't mean that it points to a reality.

Jason: Ok. Well, "ghost" is a word that, you know, we can read a dictionary definition of "ghost" and I'm sure it would say something to the effect of supernatural . . . It could be an imagined, but sin is more of a concrete definition of a trespass, or a wrongdoing. But you don't have to admit that sin exists. What your definition of sin shows that something exists that is wrong.

Dan: I don't define "sin." I throw the word out. We don't even need it. We do have a . . . we can, as secular human beings, can describe morality and ethics based on what our human needs are, and not have to make it some kind of a religious thing. In fact, millions of good Americans live really good, charitable, happy, meaningful lives without this concept of "sin" and "salvation." But they are good people because they respect humanity, and other life on this planet, by trying to avoid unnecessary harm. Calling it a "sin" makes [it] into something above our experience. It makes it something non-human, and therefore very dangerous.

Jason: Don't you think that it makes things kind of subjective if we don't have a non-subjective authority, a supernatural authority from outside our time-space dimension?

Dan: That's the only way to be moral. In fact, making it non-subjective or absolute is very very dangerous. If there is, supposedly, this absolute morality--these principles that have to be absolutely followed that were decreed by this god--then why is it that there are no two Bible-believing . . Why is it that there are no two issues on which Bible-believing Christians agree? Take any crucial social issue of the day: abortion rights, the death penalty, or doctor-assisted suicide, or gay rights, you name it. You go down through a dozen very important things, you'll find good Christians who pray, who go to church, who read the Bible, who seek God's guidance [and] you will find them falling on different sides of those issues. There is no clear absolute moral statement within the body of Christ, which is one of the evidences that the Christian morality really is nonexistent. It still boils down to your subjective feeling of what you think about abortion, or what you think about gay rights. There's no verse in the Bible that says "Thou shall not commit abortion." It's Christians themselves making a subjective decision [about] what they think the Bible ought to be saying.

One thing, imo, Christians should never do is divorce. People will disagree, especially those in bad marriages, however, if you call yourself a Christian, which I do not, though, I adopt some of the Christian ethic, you better stay married. Jesus makes clear his views on the married life. It depends on the Christian though. Some are more devout than others.

Catholics do not support divorce, generally, while the Protestants tend to look the other way.

I guess it depends on how you interpret what Jesus said about divorce.

Jesus may have made an exception for divorce in case of adultery.

The following is from Dan Barker Debates Jason Gastrich on the flamewarrior atheist web site. Dan makes a convincing argument that there is no such thing as sin.

Personally, I agree with Heinlein on the topic: "Sin consists in hurting others unnecessarily. All else is window dressing."

Well, according to one of the Gospels, Jesus said that adultery was an acceptable basis for divorce. According to another, He wasn't even that lenient. I try to remember that the Gospels were written well after the fact, and rewritten by other men later, so what He said and what they say He said might not be the same thing.

Personally, I agree with Heinlein on the topic: "Sin consists in hurting others unnecessarily. All else is window dressing."

Sin only matters if God matters.

To me, as God is of no practical importance, sin matters not to me.