What decides right and wrong in foreign policy?

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fueledbycoffee
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16 Mar 2013, 2:35 pm

Oftentimes, we find ourselves defining events along binary lines, good or evil, right or wrong. Yet events are rarely so simple. What criteria do we use to decide? What makes Auschwitz wrong and the American Japanese Internment Camps better? What makes the British Empire so unacceptable, when while the US was keeping slaves, the British navy was dismantling the slave trade?

It is generally considered that Rhodesia was a wrongheaded country. They were racist, did not allow blacks the vote, all that jazz. Yet, during the Bush War, ZANU-PF operated a campaign of terror, rape, mutilation. Instead of backing Rhodesia up, the West turned its back. There was public outcry about Rhodesia's policies, but it seems that during the Bush War, ZANU-PF was tacitly supported, despite their tactics, as embargo and a declaration of rogue state status meant that no one (Save for South Africa, and then only secretly) would extend aid to the government. In 1979, the rebels took over the government. They proceeded to send death squads into Matabeleland (The stronghold of their former allies, the Ndebele), killing tens of thousands of civilians. The land redistribution policies implemented by Mugabe's government kept Zimbabwe in a state of perpetual food shortage, and were no less racist than the policies of Smith's government. Each time there is an election, Mugabe's forces massacre civilians until the opposition backs down. Yet, Mugabe's Zimbabwe is more deserving of recognition by the international community, it seems.

On the night of March 25, 1953, Mau Mau fighters descended on the village of Lari, in Kenya. They forced the citizens, fellow Kikuyu who made the mistake of being loyal to the British, into huts. They locked the huts, and lit them on fire. Anyone who tried to escape was hacked to death. It did not matter if the victims were man, woman, or child. It did not matter that these were fellow Kikuyu. They made the mistake of failing to support the Mau Mau, so they died in a most horrible fashion. This was the most famous atrocity, but there were many more. The Mau Mau were some of the most brutal "freedom fighters" in history. The British began a process of detention and rehabilitation. Suspected Mau Mau were rounded up and detained. Their prison system was far from pleasant. There was brutality. There were forced confessions. Prisoners were judged more or less cooperative based on how easily they confessed, and were treated accordingly. The prisoners set up their own system, punishing those who cooperated. Comparisons were made to the Nazi concentration camps. Yet, these prisoners weren't culled. They were provided with food and shelter, and by 1956, any suspected Mau Mau were granted amnesty and reintegrated, along with land reforms that increased their holdings.

The British erred. We must admit that. However, what they did was perfectly understandable. The Mau Mau's crimes were shockingly brutal, and directed not against the British, who they claimed to fight, but against the Black Kenyan populace. The British clearly felt that they had to act in order to restore order and bring justice to these villains. Yet, somehow history has twisted the British into the villains here.

In 1917, the Balfour Declaration was published, indicating the British support for Palestine to be established as a home for the the Jewish People. After World War II, efforts were made to develop this idea. The British policed Palestine, enforcing coexistence between the Jewish and Arab populations of the region. Yet, in 1946, Jewish terrorists bombed the King David Hotel, killing almost 100 people, most of whom were Brits, the people who provided them this home to begin with. In 1948, 260 Arabs were killed at Deir Yassin. These events have been repeated throughout the history of Israel. Yet, while we desperately fight to bring men like Ratko Mladic to justice for similar crimes, we turn a blind eye to Menachem Begin, the man who planned these attacks, who managed to thrive and even become prime minister. In 1967, the IDF attacked the USS Liberty, a United States flag vessel. She remained aloat, thanks to her heroic crew and the Sixth Fleet, and made it to Malta.

Time and again, Israel has thumbed her nose at the West, and even behaved in a hostile fashion, despite the fact that our support is what allows them to exist and continue existing. Hamas are no better, and should be criticized accordingly. Yet, to criticize Israel is to be an antisemite.

Events such as these have been repeated time and again. People have arbitrarily decided that the British Empire was evil because it denied self-determination to the people it governed. Yet, self-determination has not worked out so well for many of these countries. Take Hong Kong. She is more advanced, freer, and wealthier than any city in mainland China. People have criticized the US for getting involved in Iraq, despite the fact that as foolish and short-sighted as it was on a strategic scale (Saddam Hussein was largely responsible for keeping Iran in check), Saddam Hussein was a monster. Time and again, people criticize nations for acts that were carried out in response to far worse monstrosities.

So who decides who was right and wrong? How can one declare empire to have be wrong, when faced with the results? Why are we so quick and eager to criticize the West, when oftentimes, despite our missteps, we are attempting to improve the world?

What are your thoughts on this?



GGPViper
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16 Mar 2013, 3:40 pm

ruveyn
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16 Mar 2013, 3:45 pm

Right is what serves and benefits the interests of the nation. Wrong is what harms the interests of the nation. Morality has nothing to do with it.

ruveyn



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16 Mar 2013, 4:47 pm

Yet, sticking with Rhodesia as an example (I'm a bit obsessed), it was in no way in the interests of the nation (or any other western nation during the Cold War), to allow Marxist rebels to take yet another African country. Part of the reason that nations such as Mozambique and Zimbabwe have had such difficulty is due to the Marxist policies of the rebels. Southeast Africa was Russia and China's playground, and given the potential for prosperity (as seen under the pre-Mugabe governments) and vast resources (massive potential for growing food, some of the best mines in the world, etc.), Rhodesia would be a more logical use of US resources than, say, Vietnam. In fact, it would have been the "realpolitik" thing to do, for both Rhodesia, and the rest of the West to forge an alliance and solidify the government's foothold, as you would create a situation that was costly for the Soviets and China, but in all likelihood very lucrative from a trade perspective. But we washed our hands of them due to the fact that a white minority held power. Not realpolitik at all.



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16 Mar 2013, 4:52 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Right is what serves and benefits the interests of the nation. Wrong is what harms the interests of the nation. Morality has nothing to do with it.

ruveyn


Okay, then-- I have a question for you.

What if a nation faces a foreign policy issue where it could be argued by proponents of either side that theirs is the position that serves the interests of the nation, and the opposing position is harmful?

For example, let's take U.S.-China diplomatic relations. It's a complex relationship, of course. On the one hand, the U.S. is indebted to China, and its consumer base relies extremely heavily on Chinese-manufactured goods. On the other hand, many American workers have lost jobs due to outsourcing to China, and Chinese products have many times now been investigated for being shoddy or even hazardous to consumers. Do we A) risk harming more American workers and consumers by continuing to pursue new commercial partnerships in China, or B) risk upsetting our debtholders in China and making business more expensive for American corporations by adopting a domestic policy that reduces our Chinese trade and returning manufacturing jobs to American soil?


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GGPViper
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16 Mar 2013, 4:56 pm

Or perhaps no one simply cared about Rhodesia/Zimbabwe. It is a landlocked country in southern Africa. As such, its territory has limited strategic value...

Cold war hotspots like Cuba, Korea and Vietnam share one defining feature: They are close to or adjacent to superpowers.



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16 Mar 2013, 5:13 pm

GGPViper wrote:
Or perhaps no one simply cared about Rhodesia/Zimbabwe. It is a landlocked country in southern Africa. As such, its territory has limited strategic value...

Cold war hotspots like Cuba, Korea and Vietnam share one defining feature: They are close to or adjacent to superpowers.


That is the sad reality of the Cold War. Our bases in Japan and Korea, Iran, the British position in Hong Kong were already ideal mustering points if the **** hit the fan. By the 70s, the Cold War was essentially a resource war. Africa is a gold mine, always has been, if people invested in making sure it was run properly. Yet, we ignore it, due to limited strategic importance. If we look at it through the lens of realpolitik, Africa is prime real estate due to the economic potential of the region, which would make the right thing to do to maintain any and all western ties. Now, African nations like Zimbabwe still have that resource potential, but the one benefiting is China, not us, as they've began massive investments in the region, while we tend to dump money by the millions into poor African countries with no real leverage to demand a return on our investments. Strategic importance is not define solely by being in striking distance.



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16 Mar 2013, 7:05 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Right is what serves and benefits the interests of the nation. Wrong is what harms the interests of the nation. Morality has nothing to do with it.

ruveyn

This is almost correct, much of foreign policy has to do with domestic politics, but domestic politics is not necessarily in the national interest arguably.



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16 Mar 2013, 8:47 pm

Peace and free trade are in the best interests of every nation.


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16 Mar 2013, 9:29 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Right is what serves and benefits the interests of the nation. Wrong is what harms the interests of the nation. Morality has nothing to do with it.

ruveyn


What if the interests within the nation are conflicted? A policy that benefits the interests of one group within the nation is often opposed to the interests of another.



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16 Mar 2013, 9:55 pm

Right and wrong mainly comes into it when there is no money at stake.

How then do we faultlessly align a nation's economic interest with the common good?



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16 Mar 2013, 10:25 pm

Winning.



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17 Mar 2013, 11:30 am

Judging from the OP's rather selective reading of the history of Israel, I'm not even sure that OP wants a discussion.


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17 Mar 2013, 11:41 am

Actually, I'd love one. As I said, history is double sided. I presented those examples that I was aware of. I don't believe that Israel is evil, and I also believe that they have as much a right to exist as anyone, solely by the virtue of the fact that they exist. I also believe that when they misbehave, they should be openly criticized. So, please, discuss. Present examples. Show me where I am wrong. I don't think that Arabs have a right to bung rockets into populated areas whenever they get riled up.

My point is, how do we determine who is right and who is wrong in a situation such as Deir Yassin or the King David Hotel? How can we claim Israel's actions were right given that they killed hundreds in just those two examples, and how can we claim that they were wrong, given the traumatized, desperate and besieged situation they found themselves in. I am inherently biased, as are we all, so I'd like to get opposing perspectives.



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17 Mar 2013, 11:46 am

A good tool for persuasive foreign policy.
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17 Mar 2013, 11:49 am

fueledbycoffee wrote:
Actually, I'd love one. As I said, history is double sided. I presented those examples that I was aware of. I don't believe that Israel is evil, and I also believe that they have as much a right to exist as anyone, solely by the virtue of the fact that they exist. I also believe that when they misbehave, they should be openly criticized. So, please, discuss. Present examples. Show me where I am wrong. I don't think that Arabs have a right to bung rockets into populated areas whenever they get riled up.

My point is, how do we determine who is right and who is wrong in a situation such as Deir Yassin or the King David Hotel? How can we claim Israel's actions were right given that they killed hundreds in just those two examples, and how can we claim that they were wrong, given the traumatized, desperate and besieged situation they found themselves in. I am inherently biased, as are we all, so I'd like to get opposing perspectives.


You might want to start by acknowleding the two cases you just pointed out....were before the May 14, 1948 formation of Israel. There is no "they".

And before you cite the 1967 matter in the OP, both parties involved have made it clear that it was an accident caused by some serious communication screw ups.


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