Losing your rights?

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I hear this all the time from people and most of the time, I think it is just a case of someone repeating something they have heard their favorite talking head say and just repeat it to other people for whatever reason. Maybe its all relative. Maybe its just political ideology. Maybe it is a case of human beings these days being influenced on what to do, think, say and believe, by people on the internet or tv machine instead of actually thinking for themselves.

Maybe my life is too minimalistic and simple, but I have to say that there is nothing that I could do or say 20 years ago, or no place that I could freely go 20 years ago, that I cannot do today, even taking into account all of the so-called "losses of freedom".

But then again, I dont allow anyone on the internet or tv to convince me of anything that I can see for myself is totally irrational.

I think we have a culture of low intelligence people who are making millionaires out of talking heads by letting themselves be manipulated day after day after day by a bunch of ignorant BS that really has nothing to do with anything.

What specific rights are you referring to? I'll throw out some random ones, see if they ring any bells.

Kelo allows the state to take your land against your will and give it to developers for practically any reason they want.

Under the PATRIOT act, not only can you be warrantlessly spied on on the flimsiest of pretexts, but the people compelled to provide your information are bound upon pain of felony not to tell you that you were investigated.

You may or may not be extrajudicially assassinated on order of the President; he's been notably coy about what the limits of that power are.

In many states, the police can stop you, take your stuff, and then file charges against the property, which is guilty until proven innocent, at your considerable expense.

Gun ownership just got much more restricted in a number of mostly East Coast states.

The police can kick in your door in the middle of the night, shoot your dogs, shoot you if they think you made a "furtive movement", trash your house, and hold you and your family at gunpoint for hours on the word of an unreliable snitch. Often enough, they get the wrong house.

If you work for the government and report lawbreaking by other people in the government, you will go to jail.

A prosecutor can lie through his teeth at your trial, send you to prison for decades, and when DNA exonerates you and audio tapes emerge of said prosecutor admitting he lied to get the conviction, there's still nothing you can do, you can't even sue him for damages, because prosecutors enjoy absolute immunity even in cases of blatant misconduct with real harm done.

Anonymous travel has become nearly impossible in many areas due to the proliferation of automatic license plate reading and tracking systems.

I could go on.

30 years of neoliberalism has caused the inevitable erosion of civil liberties as is predicted by Neoliberal Penality, that's the fact that neoliberalism is programmed with the notion that human beings must lose their liberty in the name of the supremacy of the market, a market that is perfect and self-regulating. Those who cannot adapt to unconquestioned service and obedience to the perfect market need smashing with the iron fist by the all-perfect State in the penal sphere, a State that can do nothing but bungle when it comes to intervention in the perfect market.

I see two replies that both basically look like they are taken almost verbatim from the website of people that you watch or listen to everydasy. People who you allow to influence your beliefs. I dont see anything in what either one of you posted that has any effect on my life. I do not own a gun. I do not evn own a car. I do not do anything at all in my life that would cause anyone to even look at me. I think most of this stuff is just people taking offense at the idea of someone telling them they can or cannot do something, even if what is being talked about has absolutely no impact on their lives. Just human ego doin what human ego does so well. Self preservation, even when the threat is just illusion.

I dont allow anyone on any medium of information convince me of who I should or should not trust, or what I should or should not be outraged about, or feel threatened or intimidated about. I am 56yo and have never had a problem with anyone in my life, including government or police. I am not about to start allowing some professional talking head to convince me otherwise at this stage in my life just to make him or herself rich. Personally, I think that if someone next to me owns 10 or more guns, especially something like an AR-15, I have every right to know that is going on next to me. Especially considering the reality of firearm injury and death statistics, which I believe from the FBI and CDC more than from the terrorist organization known as the NRA

First, just because they "basically look like" something doesn't mean that those views aren't equally valid. Second, because something doesn't apply to you does mean that rights aren't vanishing from many. That's like a noble saying that the people aren't starving because the nobility still has food.

And yes, it is offense taken at someone telling them what they can and can not do. The government was never intended to be permitted to make laws to limit rights. In America, we were promised self-determination with as limited involvement from government as possible. A man can't build his house without it having to conform to a specific code. As a previous poster said, the executive branch has been very cagey about whether or not drones can be used on Americans, which is a direct violation of the right to due process. You no longer have a right to free speech, thanks to de facto censorship in the form of political correctness. If you so much as publicly espouse an anti-establishment view, you can be put on a watch list. This is completely different from what the Constitution promised us. So yes, we do take offense.

It is your right to give away whatever rights you want, friend. It is mine to be cautious about trusting someone else with my rights. Time and time again a powerful central government has proven to be an extremely negative development, whether for political process, stability, or economy. We have a right to be wary.



Yet you're trying to influence people. You use loaded words like terrorist to describe the NRA, which does more to promote firearm safety than any government program. You personally don't like the NRA, so we shouldn't either. You're doing the opposite of what you're saying.

Meanwhile, you deny others their right to privacy. Say a man, a completely responsible guy, owns ten guns. Maybe he's a collector. Maybe he's a survivalist, whatever. Maybe he just likes guns. He has a right to privacy, unless he were to turn those guns on another human being. He's passed a background check, especially if he owns even one pistol. He's innocent until proven guilty, and unless you have a warrant issued by a judge, no, you do not have a right to know what's going on over there.

Maybe I have no legal right to know how many guns my neighbor owns but I have a right to feel like I should have the option to know, so that I can move, especially if he is a survivalist.

The NRA, in the old days or the original NRA, was all about gun safety but now the NRA is all about protecting the firearms indistrys ability to make a dollar by spreading propaganda and scaring people into believing that the government is going to come kick down their door and take all of their guns. Over 90% of Americans want background checks on gun sales yet legislation cannot even be discussed because of NRA pressure and lies. Even Republican lawmakers have said the NRA is lying to America about what the legislation involves. I hear Wayne LaPierre and all I see is a delusional, senile old man spewing ignorance.

Really? Criminals wont submit to background checks so we should not use them to stop people with mental disorders or a history of violence from buying guns?

Really. Lets just not have laws against murder and rape and burglary. Why waste the time and money with laws at all since ignorant people believe that bad people dont care about the law. That is about as rational as me interviewing a house cat for a position on a NASCAR pitcrew tire changing team.

The NRA has stepped into the role that it has because there's money to be made. Gun control is unpopular, and they not only represent those who manufacture the gun but also those who own them. They don't necessarily whip people into a frenzy. The idea that the government wants to further control their guns does that for most people (By the way, do you have a source for that 90% statistic?). Regulation breeds an industry of representation, since the affected industry doesn't want to lose money. So the NRA steps up to fill the need. That doesn't make them terrorists. It makes them a business exercising the right to free expression. And your opinion is yours, but that doesn't make it exclusively right.



As I said previously, background checks are required to purchase handguns. Honestly, as a law abiding citizen, I would not personally be opposed to undergoing a check for a rifle. But tell me. Do you honestly think that a convicted criminal wouldn't know where to buy a red-tape-free firearm? Anyone who wants to bad enough can buy a gun without a background check. As regulations increase, so does the black market. I do think that certain types of mental illness, however, if presented on a background check, should exclude one from purchasing a gun. Just because I'm opposed to excessive gun controls does not means that there aren't a million shades of gray and caveats.

That's not really the point, however. My argument was that you, personally, as a citizen, have no right to know your neighbor's history. None. Even if he's served time in the past, his sentence is up, or he wouldn't be there. He may not own a firearm, but that doesn't change the fact that he has a right to privacy, and that trumps your right to believe you have a right to now. Once his time is done, he should not be forced to live out a life sentence for his past crime just because he's unlucky enough to live next to a busybody.



Where did anyone say that we shouldn't have any laws against theft, rape, or murder? I did say we should have minimal government involvement. The investigation of crimes such as rape, theft, and murder are those that I and most other rational people would file under minimal. You're using a strawman.

Are you trying to pick a fight?

If you're an adult living in the USA, I can say with great certainty that you commit an average of 3 felonies a day, as does every other American. The only thing standing between you and the jaws of the legal system is that you haven't come to their notice yet, because once they take an interest, they can always find something.

Also, what talking heads are you referring to that speak of civil asset forfeiture and pervasive surveillance? Names and links please.

As to the NRA, if it's all about money for the manufacturers, then why would they have such a problem with a bill that would have made it harder to buy used guns, on which the manufacturers make no money? Maybe you don't want to admit that the NRA is not powerful because it has money, after all lots of organizations have money, but because it represents a very large chunk of highly motivated voters, and that would confound the media narrative the the NRA's power is somehow not legitimate. No one would listen to them no matter how much money they had if they couldn't deliver the votes, and in order for them to do that, people have to agree with their position, lots of people. So what is your problem again with an organization that advocates on behalf of it's members against an often ignorant an misled public? Cause if you want to talk misinformation concerning guns, it's not the NRA you should be pointing at.

First of all I am curious what 3 felonies you think I commit on a daily basis when I seldom even leave my room or apartment in the daytime and speak to noone, own nothing, go nowhere. And what information source told you that the average American commits 3 felonies a day.

Glenn Beck, Alex jones both get filtyhy rich by brainwashing people with idiotic lies.

You will neiter believe, nor acknoledge the validity of any statistic which shows that more guns does not equal less violence or fewer homicides so I wont even waste my time with that. The NRA is not concerned with used guns, but the NRA is convinced, despite what anyone says that this will escalate to something more than what the legislation says. That is why politicians have said that the NRA is lying to its membership(which is not a "significant number of gun owners") Nra membership is said to be around 4 million, which I highly suspect given the lack of integrity I see from the NRA. I see a bunch of duplicate meemberships created after Sandy Hook, designed to make it look like membership is higher than it actually is, because pre Dec 2012 NRA membership was said to be just over 2 million. It is not that the NRA represents a large number of voters, because over 80% of NRA members agree with background checks for all gun purchases. It is just that the NRA has groups of people who are very LOUD with their opposition. Those loud people do not represent the majority by any means.

I live in an apartment complex that is 95% social security recipients and all of them sit aroiund bad mouthing Obama all day long. It has nothing to do with having any real knowledge about anything Obama, or any other President or administration actually does. It is a result of the fact that the majority of these people do not have cable tv and get all their news from Fox news affiliated stations, which means they are virtual captives for indoctrination and brainwashing. I walk around and listen to the conversations these people have and I cannot believe the level of ignorance and lies they sit and repeat all day.

That is a reflection of America. A whole population of people who do not know how to think for themselves but just sit and let the tv pour anything and everything into their unaware minds. We are a complete civilization of idiots

I'm sorry khaoz, how are these things not of concern to you?

I mean, the police aren't that bad so usually these things won't happen, but the very fact that the law has provisions for them should be worrying. And this in a nation where police are often armed!

It won't affect the lives of the vast majority of Americans, but the second and third could affect the lives of one innocent family a decade. That possibility alone is fairly chilling.

To momentarily steer the conversation away from guns for a moment, and to get back to the OP concerning if we're losing our rights today - I'm sure black and gay Americans would have a very different opinion about that, as their rights have only increased in the most recent decades.
The exception being in regressive red states where passing anti-gay marriage laws are becoming popular. Give it a few years, and gays will have even the right to marry nationally.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Last edited by Kraichgauer on 24 Apr 2013, 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Take a large group of people with elected representative leadership, and then subvert the leadership with corporate money and influence. Probably sounds like I'm talking about congress, but the same words apply equally well to the NRA.

Its pretty sad that corporations can come in, basically buy out an organization's leadership, and now suddenly the organization, with all of its perceived voting power due to its large (now disenfranchised) membership, puts out exactly the message that the corporations want spread.

So many people miss the point and the power of the NRA... I'm not even a member, haven't been in years (too much junk mail), but I do make use of them, and it's not how you think. See, the NRA is like a cheat sheet if you're interested in guns and politics, it let's you instantly look up any politician's record on gun related votes, and see where they actually stand on the issue, as opposed to where they say they stand. Take John Kerry back in 2004 with all of his camo clad hunting trips. A quick perusal of his NRA scoresheet shows that he's no friend of firearms, and that the posing is just that, a pose (and an insulting one at that). No lies or distortion needed, just a database of votes and bills.

Does the NRA dictate my position? No, it never has, it just happens to be the most powerful group that aligns with my interests in the matter of firearms. I think you'll find that this is the case with many gun owners, and further, that it's these people who aren't on the membership rolls but pay attention to the vote scoring that provide the groups real political punch. All that money wouldn't matter if people didn't agree with the position that the association was taking and vote accordingly; you've got things backwards and think the tail is waving the dog.

Finally, this whole "the NRA is just a manufacturer's lobby and doesn't really represent it's members' interests" line is the just the latest liberal narrative attacking the group, if you actually talked to, say, some gun owners, you'd quickly find the lack of truth in that statement. I often disagree with the NRA's approach to things, think the group needs some new blood and younger faces, etc, but when push comes to shove, I'll take the 800lb gorilla in my corner, problems and all.

Still waiting for someone to tell me what 3 felonies I commit everyday if I am an American.

Anyway, being on disability at my age, I am in a position not to ever have to worry about any of this nonsense. I know how fortunate I am and I am taking full advantage of my situation. Even the people who want to wreck the social security system promise that people of a certain age will not be affected. So nothing that goes on will affect my life in any way. I have no children, thus no grandchildren. I live in a very small, quiet, safe town, where everything I need is within a 2 minute walk, even in the worst weather imaginable. I will just watch America implode on its own ignorance

Still waiting for someone to tell me what 3 felonies I commit everyday if I am an American.

Anyway, being on disability at my age, I am in a position not to ever have to worry about any of this nonsense. I know how fortunate I am and I am taking full advantage of my situation. Even the people who want to wreck the social security system promise that people of a certain age will not be affected. So nothing that goes on will affect my life in any way. I have no children, thus no grandchildren. I live in a very small, quiet, safe town, where everything I need is within a 2 minute walk, even in the worst weather imaginable. I will just watch America implode on its own ignorance

I dont need to go to the NRA website to see any politician voting record on anything. I would not trust the NRA to report anything having to do with gun rights honestly because I have seen them lie too many times.

If I want to see a politicians voting record I just go to the government website that tracks all voting records of anyone.

The NRA has no integrity. Wayne LaPierre is a delusional madman, on the verge of lunacy sometimes. What LaPierre and the NRA supported 5 years ago they are against now. They do not care about human life. They feed the frenzy of paranoia and fear. The people of this country are so prone to being manipulated by fear tactics and there are groups like the NRA and political parties from all angles who prey on stoking the amygdala