Does the Muslim LGBT movement have a future?

Post Reply New Topic

What do you think of Muslims who try to stay within their faith and call for tolerance of LGBT people. Like these: http://www.imaan.org.uk/about/about.htm And this guy: http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/gay- ... -law200113

Is Islam simply to intolerant at the core to accommodate modern attitudes to sexuality? Or are the liberal imams who say homosexuality is not a sin in Islam onto something? I've even read about gay Muslims calling for gay marriage in their own communities (to counter the idea that LGBT people are hedonistic and promiscuous).

I'm not very well-read on this subject, but if Islam is like Christianity in how open it is to interpretation, then I guess gay Muslims have an argument for keeping their faith.

Not that I'm thinking or reverting or anything. I'm post-religious through and through.

Yes, it makes complete sense following a religion that calls for your death and people like you.

I think gay Muslims are insane for wanting to stay in the religion, but it takes all kinds. Good luck to them.

Apparently (according to Muslim queer rights people), it only mentions homosexuality about twice in the Quran and that can be interpreted as 'lewdness' i.e. orgies and stuff.

There are hadith that are vehemently against gay sex, but liberal Muslims question their authenticity.

I'm just questioning whether Islam is as homophobic as I assumed it was. It's as sexist as I thought it was, so maybe I'll just be disappointed with humans again.

What I've tended to observe in discussions amongst apoststes and critics is that liberal Muslims often lie to themselves and try to bend scripture to something they can live with. They try to build a liberal Islam in their heads, but from what I gather they're forever suffering from cognitive dissonance hetween actual scripture and what they believe as good human beings.

Interesting idea though.

That sounds what liberal Christians do, in my experience. I just wonder if the cognitive dissonance is stronger for Muslims.

From what I've heard, it's a lot stronger but is far more repressed.

Are christian gays just as insane for wanting to stay within Christianity? If you follow Christian scripture to its conclusion its really no more tolerant than Islam. If there are different semantics that can be interpreted by the stuff in the Quran, then there is only one way the stuff in the Old Testament can be interpreted. Especially that verse in the book of Leviticus.

To me that shows that it is not necessarily impossible that strides forward can be made within Islam, but all institutionalised religions, have the capacity to liberalise and review their own teachings.

Last edited by thomas81 on 23 Apr 2013, 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

There doesn't seem to be that reformist tendency within Islam. Christianity and Judaism has a strong tendency towards reformism, as can be seen with our own Enlightenment. Islam has still to make that leap, and a large part of that is because they are so beholden to their teachings. There is a massive emphasis on the literal meanings of the teachings in Islam, which is why liberals tend to either ignore the teachings or find dishonest explanations for whatever is in there.

What is a liberal anyways?

Also wouldn't it be a good thing if Islam made that leap? or is it best they stick to the strict doctrines and outdated crap about homosexuality carrying a penalty of death. I mean if Christianity stayed the same as it started there would be a lot of people being killed for all kinds of minor offenses.

If anything you seem to be painting these liberals in more of a positive light than negative, yet it seems you're trying to imply the opposite that they shouldn't be trying to alter the religion any to make it more human friendly.

A 'liberal' Muslim and what we would describe as liberal are often very different. It's often the same with 'moderate' Muslims - they may be moderate in the sense of literalist Islam, but they would be considered extremely authoritarian and intolerant by a Western liberal yardstick.



It would, but the point I'm trying to make is that the religion seems to allow for no deviance from the scripture whilst being able to call yourself Islamic with real credibility.



I'm arguing that they are good people - and I feel a huge amount of sympathy for them. (In other words: I don't envy their task, not in a thousand years.)

But it seems to me that they are trying, fruitlessly, to make Islamic scripture something that they can actually live with as human beings. And that is nearly impossible for them to do. The cognitive dissonance is extremely strong.

A lot of the more, erm, Westernised Muslims simply ignore a lot - if not all - the scripture and keep it as a cultural identifier of sorts - you know, going to parties and cultural gatherings, rarely going to mosque, perhaps not drinking alcohol, having a prayer mat somewhere. And so on.

The Mainstream (Sunni) view of homosexuality is that homosexual acts between men are punishable by death. I believe these are the most authoritative sources:

Abu Dawood (no. 4462):
"If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done."
http://sunnah.com/abudawud/40

At-Tirmidhi (no. 1456):
"Whomever you find doing the actions of the people of Lut then kill the one doing it, and the one it is done to."
http://sunnah.com/tirmidhi/17

Ibn Majah (no. 2561):
“Whoever you find doing the action of the people of Lut, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done.”
http://sunnah.com/ibnmajah/20

... I am detecting a pattern, here...

Now these are less well known collections than the two Sahihs of Bukhari and Muslim, but they are still part of the canonical Sunni hadith.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_major_ ... ollections

It gets more complicated when dealing with lesbian acts... Some authors believe that the above ahadith applies to both male and female homosexuality (so again, death), while others believe that lesbian acts must be treated under the wider category of Zina (unlawful intercourse) which has different magnitudes of punishment.

All good fun and games, then.

And they wonder why dissenting ex-Muslim opinions are a bit difficult to come by.

To be fair, some liberal christians have done the same with teachings in the bible. The more obvious question that comes to my mind is this, if morality comes from religion, as religious people often claim, then how are you able to discard some teachings in your religion because it offends your sense of morality? Obviously, morality doesn't come from religion.

The main difference between Christianity and Islam is that the bible is written by men and only inspired by god, but the koran is dictated by god and written down by the prophet. So to argue that the wording is messed up might work for the bible, but when you say that for the koran you imply that either god or the prophet f****d it up.

This is right. Whenever you dispute what the Quran or Hadith says, you are disputing the word of Allah. It's not like there is an intermediary there. You are disputing the word of Allah, as given to him by Muhammad. It's a much more totalitarian system of belief to begin with.

I don't think that Muslims can argue with the scripture easily and get away with credibility, because you'll always get the Salafis and others ridiculing them (and these types tend to have more power and violence behind them). I think a liberalisation of attitudes in Muslim communities and a drifting away from Islam is the best way to go.

One might have asked the same question about gays and the Anglican Church within my lifetime. And while the Anglican Communion has not wholly embraced gay and lesbian Anglicans, yet, the doctrinal shift is demonstrable during the last 40 years.

Of course the Muslim LGBT movement has a future. As do LGBT followers of all faiths. Some advance more quickly and readily than others, but all will advance. It is the inevitable fact of human social development.