Serious ? Constitution and citizenship

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I have a genuine question and admittedly know little about these kinds of things.

I was very surprised that they did not deem Dzhokhar Tsarneav an enemy combatant. My understanding is that they did not do so because he is a U.S. citizen.

How can it be that someone can take up arms against their country of citizenship and join the opposing side in a war, and still be given rights of protection as a citizen? It doesn't make sense to me. Jihadists have declared war against the US, and we (supposedly) are fighting a "war on terror"--although the President's decision leads me to believe that is a catchy sound phrase for the media moreso than an actual declaration of war--and yet when an American citizen joins the jihadists and commits an act of war on our own soil, killing 4 people and maiming many others, he is protected as a citizen?

How does this work? Shouldn't you automatically lose your citizenship if you "join the other side" in a war? What would have happened if Americans joined the Nazis or Viet Cong? They would have enjoyed the protection of citizenship?

I am really asking for someone who has knowledge of these types of laws to explain how it works, because it doesn't seem logical to me, and I am genuinely curious how the president could justify such a decision.

Another question I have is now that they have read him his miranda rights and he has stopped talking, does this mean everything he has said will be inadmissible in court? Could this vile murderer potentially end up going free?

Natural born citizens can never lose their citizenship. That comes with birth in U.S. territory to American parents. However a natural born citizen that commits acts of war against the United States can be accused and indicted for treason. Which carries the death penalty. See what happened to Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, both natural born U.S. Citiizens.

ruveyn

But he was not a natural born citizen. My understanding is that he is a Chechen refugee who came here as a child.

Does this mean that he should be tried for treason?

I'm fairly certain that natural born citizens can lose their citizenship, if they choose to... I've considered it myself, since they insist on taxing foreign earned income, which no-one else in the world does. I'm hoping they change it, though, so I can use it as one of my flags (5/6 flags theory) and travel on my UK passport...

Though, the US doesn't let you lose citizenship if it would make you stateless, so if you hold only American citizenship, then they won't let you stop being a subject of America.

I don't see where this fellow should be treated any differently than Timothy McVeigh was.

You mean as the companies that were officially working with the german company IG-Farben (= IG-colours) (the one that owned BASF, responsible for the concentration camp gas zyklon B which was used to kill jews by gas), helping them to produce artificial oil for the german war machinery, even when the USA already were official at war with Nazi Germany and the oil that was produced was used for warmachines that killed US-soldiers?

Also known as John D. Rockefellers Standard Oil? Hey, who needs morals when he has enough economical power, to be able to blackmail the US government simply by the ability to decide upon their war efforts, simply by refusing the needed oil for the US warmachines. Capitalists: The ultimate US patriots and a role model for all of us.

At least this Dzokhar is opposing you, because of something he really believes in (as weird as it maybe) and not for a golden swimming pool.

There is a lot of evidence in the Marathon bombing case that does not rely upon self-incriminating statements made by Tsarnaev the Younger: Videos, photograph, technical evidence of the blast and at the very least one very incriminating witness statement. I would be quite surprised if the only things standing between him and freedom were his own statements.

And if the FBI want to admit his non-Miranda statements to the court, they will likely do so with reference to the public safety exception to the Miranda warning. A possible rationale would be that they needed to make sure that there were no more bombs/accomplices etc.

So, the question is really if the aftermath of the Maraton bombing constitutes "a situation where concern for public safety must be paramount to adherence to the literal language of the prophylactic rules enunciated in Miranda", as mentioned in New York v. Quarles.

Declaring a citizen an "enemy combatant" would violate his due process rights. That's why. There's a thing called the US constitution; it's there for a reason.

Aside from the Constitutional issues, why acknowledge him as anything other than a common criminal and give him recognition he doesn't deserve? I think his uncle had it right when he said that his nephews weren't terrorists, they were just losers.

This.

He is like Cho (the Virginia Tech killer),or the colorado movie theatre killer.
He should be punished as a mass murderer. But he is not wearing the uniform of a foriegn army,nor is he 'betraying his country'. He is just a common criminal. So he is neither an "enemy combatant", nor is he "a traitor".

Last edited by naturalplastic on 25 Apr 2013, 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I think it's because people who aren't U.S. citizens are considered to be less human than people who are U.S. citizens, according to the American legal system. This seems to reflect the attitudes of a lot of people here.

I think demonizing such persons is the wrong way, because it declares them to be of importance. So I think its more likely, that others will see them as an idol. We also had such a selfmade terrorist in my country, 2 years ago he did some internet videos, burning his austrian passport and declaring that he refuses to be austrian, because of him now being a citzien of "the true islam" and he will join now the army of Allah and we and our country of "AIDS inherited non believers" (didnt know that I needed to have AIDS to be a citizen of my country ^^), will be punished and knows hell what. So definitely brainwashed.

Before he could get into the radical areas, he was catched up in turkey, and was arrested because of himself declaring as a terrorist in his own videos. What happened after two years: He is homesick, he wants to get back to Austria, he is crying in his cell...

And I think it would be good to do so and sueing him in Austria, because you cant show better, that what those fanatics do is nothing but mad nonsense and brainwashing, that is not linked with realitiy in any way. They are simply using frustrated boys, that whyever have a hard time in their life, filling them with glorious brainshit, telling them something about a glorious war and I think you cant better show it, as with this guy, because he has experienced it himself that it was nothing but nonsense and lies, and that there is nothing glorious about wars, holy wars, suffering for an radical hating god and so on. And that all this "The true believe in the true god will help you to withstand everything...." nonsense is simply nonsense and isnt easing prisons or cells in any way.

Sadly the idiot did not simply treat Austria but had to treaten the USA in his videos as well, and they are allied with turkey, so they refuse to let him get arrested by Austria until their intelligence thinks that they have every information he has. But I really would like to see it, that this guy is getting his process in austria as an austrian citizen, because there would be much press attention, so many people would get informed about the tricks these braindead fanatics use to catch young men as soldiers. It could help that others leanr how to identify these guys, so they can early refuse contact. I mean these guys dont come to you and declare: "Hi, I am a radical muslim and I am seaarching for idiots that are willing to kill themself for our braindead causes." but do the opposite of it. First they try to get the trusts of the young, and only after that they are starting with their brainwashing ideology. So it would be best, if young men could identify these tricks in the first phase, when they are still being nice to get their trust.

But I dont see a sense in taking him his citizenship. Rotting without citizenship in a cell in turkey he will be of no use to us. He is simply a real dumb citizen of mine.

qft
He's a murderer with delusions of grandeur.

The whole "enemy combatant" thing is on very unstable legal ground to begin with. If the government can declare any one citizen an "enemy combatant" and suspend the Constitution in that case, it can eventually find an excuse to do it for every single citizen. That's how government works.

When evaluating giving any power to government, we must never look toward what "good" might be done. We must always look to what harm can be done if the power is abused. History has shown that any "good" will always be temporary and probabilistic, while all government powers are eventually always abused.