Spanking - abuse or effective

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A conversation in another thread made me decide to start this one here. Do you think spanking a child is abuse or do you think it's a valid discipline technique? If you have kids do you spank, or have you? Were you spanked as a child? If you think it's ok to spank then what restrictions would you put on it, ie; as punishment for what, age to start and stop, hand, hickory or belt? Why do you hold the opinion that you hold? Is it ok to use it on kids on the spectrum? If so, which ones?

Most of you probably know mine, so I'll wait till some folks post and then respond to theirs.

Yes, I was spanked.

No, I don't find hitting children to be acceptable, and I believe there is no difference between a smack across the bum and a smack across the face. Hitting is hitting.

I don't hit my dog. Why would I treat a child worse than my dog?

Depends on the circumstances of the situation, the parent, and the child. .

I was spanked or slapped across the face occasionally by my mother as a child but it was done more out of anger rather than real disciplining. My father never was able to handle being a disciplinarian so it was the responsibility of my mom, growing up he was beaten severely by his father to the point where he would have to go the hospital. When pushed to a place he didn't want to go, my father's anger could be quite explosive but despite this he never laid a hand on me or my siblings. Personally, I don't think I could physically discipline a child since I inherited that explosive anger and I'd be afraid of doing something I would regret.

Hast thou never read Rousseau's Confessions?

http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/phl302/ ... Book1.html

The effects do spill over into adulthood.

I previously posted the following study from 2010 on WP. The study investigates the effects of spanking on aggression in 3-year olds:
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/c ... 8.full.pdf

Summary from the article (page 1057):

"WHAT’S KNOWN ON THIS SUBJECT: Dozens of studies have
shown a significant statistical link between the use of CP with
children and child aggression, including many studies that
controlled for the child’s initial level of aggression.

WHAT THIS STUDY ADDS: With controlling for the child’s initial
level of aggression, demographic features, and 8 potential
parenting risk confounders, which to our knowledge have not
previously been controlled simultaneously, more-frequent use of
CP increased the risk for higher levels of child aggression."

(My emphasis added).

In other words. Corporal punishment of children isn't just ineffective. It is counterproductive...

The study also points out (page 1058) that the American Academy of Pediatrics, the Canadian Psychological Association and The National Association of School Psychologists all recommend other uses than corporal punishment for disciplining children.

Aggression, violence, dominance, and sex are inter-related in many mammalian species.

The bighorn sheep who wins the head-butting contests against all of his herd-mates gets the honour of breeding with all of the females, who may get a sexual thrill out of watching the contest.

Rape is very common in human warfare. Just about every German woman and girl in Eastern Europe had the honour of being raped by soldiers of the advancing Red Army.

The use of violence to assert dominance over children seems to be what makes the human species especially unique.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njG7p6CSbCU[/youtube]

Valid.


Yes


Yes


Gross disobedience/defiance, situations that put the child or others in danger, other situations in which other forms of punishment would be impossible or too delayed to be effective.


It's hard to say when to start...I'm not highly in favor of spanking a 1-year-old, but around 2-ish for sure is a safe time to start. It just depends on the child. I'd say by the time a child is 8 spanking is no longer effective. But by 8 years regular patterns of behavior should be well-established such that most forms of punishment are no longer even necessary--including alternatives to physical punishment. I'd say with older kids they can have an increasing amount of freedom as long as they demonstrate a proven ability to appropriately handle the freedom that they have. Show yourself incapable of behaving well and you'll lose privileges. Lose enough privileges and I'll see to it you don't leave the house before you're 25. I just don't see the point of spanking a 14-year-old.


Hand. Spanking is painful to the child. If you can't feel the same discomfort, then it's impossible to gauge the amount of force to use before doing serious physical damage. If spanking leaves a bruise, it's too much. Besides, paddles and leather belts are way too impersonal. If it doesn't cause the parent pain, physical or emotional, to discipline a child, then it shouldn't be done. I want my kids to know that the whole family is affected when one of us does wrong. Separating a parent from the punishment is the easy way out. There is no sense that we are in this together when someone does something wrong and a parent is forced to discipline a child.


I believe that a parent's duty is to correct a child by all means necessary. I don't think that spanking is ALWAYS necessary. When my children were younger, spankings were more frequent than they are now, and it was easier to communicate to my children back then that if you do wrong, big, bad, scary daddy is going to bring the hurt. I consistently explained to my children why they were being punished the way the were, what they did wrong, and that I hated having to punish them. For the most part, that stuck and it has become a rare thing for me to punish my 5 and 4 year old that way. The threat of it looms over them, but they are learning more about the intrinsic values and rewards of being good kids. They're old enough to start understanding that kind of thing, so they don't need me to punish them much anymore.

We've used time-outs to great effectiveness, too. We've taken away toys--which they don't really care enough for that to really work. Mostly the form that discipline takes around the house is we give them the freedom to do pretty much whatever and schedule engaging activities that keep them learning and out of trouble. I mean, they don't have time to get in trouble. I think the best discipline over and above spanking is setting up situations and environments in which a child isn't going to misbehave in the first place. We have very few rules--but we enforce them all. We set high expectations early on for our kids. And because of that we avoid a lot of potentially ugly situations.

However, our kids aren't perfect, either. SOMETIMES spanking is necessary, and a child really has to go to extremes to earn a spanking. Severe misbehavior, dangerous situations (like running out into traffic). Gross disrespect and defiance--I don't care if a child addresses me as his equal or his superior...but I will not tolerate being talked-down to by someone who needed me to wipe his or her butt. Profanity gets zero tolerance and an automatic spanking. Willful disobedience. We have ways of warning our kids to fall in line when they are given directives. If a child is dragging his feet or doesn't want to stop a particular activity, I count quickly to 5. I also do "steps": "On 1" is a reminder (the child might have repeated the undesired behavior by accident). "On 2" is a warning (the behavior is deliberate). "On 3" is some unpleasant form of discipline--might be a slap on the wrist, time-out, extra vegetables, take away a toy, or spanking. Physical punishment is strictly last-resort when all other attempts at correcting behavior have failed. Physical punishment has only ever been "first-resort" when our children were still too young to understand verbal communication in regards to their behavior. I have a 1-year-old, though, and even he understands "no" and "stop." "Spanking" is just lightly tapping him on the arm or leg to draw his attention away from reaching for his older brother's Legos, and subsequently firmly saying "no" is usually enough to stop the behavior. He's not sufficiently independent enough yet to warrant much more than that. I also think that having two older siblings modeling the expected behavior will probably lessen the amount of discipline we have to use.

I've also noticed that the effectiveness of punishment largely depends on the child. My oldest lives in fear of punishment, so at one word from me he'll turn on a dime and give me back 9 cents change. My middle child equally despises physical punishment but bounces back faster, therefore spanking her isn't as effective. To make sure physical punishment keeps its effectiveness with our kids, mom and I will get together at least once a year and agree on a specified period of time in which physical punishment is not to be used or even threatened. I used to be a classroom teacher. And though I never paddled students, it didn't take me long to figure out that most of the "problem" students preferred paddling. It was quick punishment, got them in and out of the principal's office so they could get back to work making hell for other teachers. Spanking is useless, as is any form of discipline, once children become immune to it.

The one thing I NEVER want to be guilty of is sending the wrong message to my kids through discipline. Yes, I was spanked as a child, and it was usually a limb from a tree or my father's leather belt. No one LIKES that kind of punishment when you're on the receiving end. But my dad always somehow seemed to enjoy whipping me. Suffice it to say I don't have many positive memories of my father. As I got older, I tried to avoid him as much as I could. My kids love me, and I think part of it is they sense that I care about them in spite of being the bearer of harsh consequences. They understand that I want them to grow up to be good people, and we spend so much more time having fun, reading books, playing games, learning how to play piano, and so on that past misbehaviors are quickly forgiven and forgotten. I never got that with my dad. It was like he couldn't wait for me to do something wrong so he could "tear me up." So if I'm in a situation in which I feel that I HAVE to spank my kids, I'm always wondering if I'm turning into my father and if they'll hate me that much. If I'm angry at my kids, thinking about that is enough to make me rethink physical punishment and send them to time-out. There are only a few short years left for me to concern myself with it, anyway, and all I can do is pray that I'm doing the right thing in the meantime.

I suppose I was around 12 or 13 the last time my dad beat me with a belt. I was old enough and big enough by that point to start hitting back. He died not long after. I would hate to think that my kids' last and most enduring memories of me would be of humiliation, hitting them, and verbally abusing them. Making decisions on how to discipline them isn't something I can afford to take lightly. So I go with what is most effective and appropriate to the situation. Spanking is in the repertory. It's not an all-purpose tool for use at all levels.


Tough to say... Being "on the spectrum" isn't a get-out-of-jail free card for misbehavior. I don't seem to have to worry about my kids in that regard, but I suppose I'd be even more careful if I had a kid on the spectrum. I mean, from what I've already posted here so far, it should be obvious that I feel that whatever form of discipline is absolutely necessary, and I mean the bare minimum, to correct behavior is the most appropriate. The usual methods won't work with many AS kids since they likely will only make things worse. I have no experience here, but I'd speculate and say that if a child is predisposed to learning independently and thinking logically, then consequences for misbehaviors are a built-in part of the child's environment. "Don't do that. Why? Because it hurts. OUCH. That hurts! Don't do that again." I pretty much let the environment teach my kids, anyway. Don't annoy your sister. Why? She'll hit you. My kids are learning interpersonal skills by fighting with each other. They experience firsthand the advantages of sorting out their differences peacefully, and that teaches them to get along most of the time. The only problem is that mom has a shorter fuse than I do and prefers to intervene, whereas I find my kids amusing. So I think something similar in principle is a more effective route of discipline than automatically going to physical punishment. A well-timed "I told you so" is all a parent needs to say, if anything at all.

But I'm the wrong person to ask regarding AS children. I responded well to corporal punishment and never took issue with it as a child. I understood that it was used and that certain behaviors carried certain risks. What was bothersome to me was how my dad and certain teachers approached it. My classmates often set me up in 2nd grade, even if I didn't actually DO or say anything, so I couldn't go two days without a paddling. Later teachers were less willing to leave us unattended, so if I got punished for anything it was because a teacher actually observed me misbehaving. One teacher in particular favored humiliating students in front of classmates, and I think that can be as abusive if not more so than physical punishment. I figured out the system as I got older, so if I wanted to get back at a bully, all I had to do was pick a fight. I'm not opposed to paddling in schools. I just think it's over used and there are students who are way too old for it being paddled. Punishment is supposed to correct the behavior, and if it encourages or exacerbates it, then it's best left alone.


Understood. I think there's a fine line between discipline/punishment and abuse. I NEVER lay a hand on a child in anger. NEVER. My oldest once slammed a door so hard it put a hole in the wall. That's a pretty serious crime in my opinion. But I never spanked him for it. I didn't feel that my state of mind was a safe one to be in while punishing a child...and exactly how do you set limits on the severity of that given the level of destruction to property that created? I chalked it up to my lack of supervision at that point in time, it was my own fault for not stopping the behavior that led to destroying the wall, and left it at that. In the future I started punishing my children for playing with doors to ensure it never happened again. But the point is that's something I could do without becoming furious with my kids.

Some parents are predisposed to anger and violent behavior. Some parents don't know their own strength. If you have a history of those kinds of things or other abusive behavior, do NOT physically punish your kids. If there is a reason why a particular child would respond in an opposite way to the desired effect, a parent should employ an alternative to spanking. If spanking is ineffective, it shouldn't be used. But if it WORKS and parents who use it can be cool-headed and non-abusive about it, there's no reason not to use it. Same goes for ANY form of punishment, physical or not. I mean, think about it--I could just as easily verbally discipline my children and get results. Would I be any better if that took the form of humiliating and belittling language? If it were ME, I'd rather just take the spanking. Neither words nor physical touch need take abusive forms, so it comes down to what works with the child and what the parent can do to maximum effectiveness with least necessary amount of force, whether in words or in action.

I was spanked as a child, and I do not believe that I have suffered any ill effects as a result.

As for the propriety of its use on children, generally, I think that there is no correct answer.

There are children for whom spanking is always and necessarily abusive and should never be used.
There are children for whom spanking is effective, and can be administered in a constructive and careful way.

But only a parent, acting dispassionately and with careful thought can make an evaluation of when and whether spanking is effective. Although I was the recipient of corporal punishment twice in school (and both times well deserved), I am not so sanguine about its use in schools. I think that time has well and truly passed.

There are obvious restrictions on parental use of corporal punishment, though. Age is significant, not so much in the use of spanking, but in its severity. I see no circumstances in which the use of implements is appropriate for a parent.

As for kids on the spectrum, I see nothing inherent in being on the spectrum that prevents corporal punishment from being an effective parenting tool. But when the discussion comes down to individual kids on the spectrum, then the calculus is very different.

Ultimately, for any punishment to be effective, the child much be of sufficient maturity to understand the link between the behaviour and the punishment; and the punishment must serve as a deterrent to repetition of the bad behaviour. Spanking ceases to be effective when the child can view the punishment as a quick, moderately uncomfortable, and ultimately temporary response to behaviour that has other incentives. When I was a teenager in school, "the whack" was almost universally viewed as the preferable punishment for misconduct, because once it was done, it was over with. "The Tank" (the detention room) on the other hand, lasted considerably longer, and was viewed much less favourably. I know which was the greater deterrent.

I was spanked but not frequently.

There should be mutual respect between fathers and sons. Sometimes, the sons are the ones who spank their parents.
Like many things, it depends. Like visagrunt said:

I only would like to add that if spanking isn't "teaching" your child then other precautions should be carefully thought, measuring the
consequences.

I was spanked by my father when I was a child. I did not find it pleasant then, nor will I now. Personally, I think it is abuse because you are striking your own child. Plus, it doesn't help calm them down; instead it would just make the problem worse, and can even traumatize the child. There are better ways to discipline children, such as a simple time-out.

Never did me, my family or anyone I know any harm.

It's all good. We need more physical punishment.

There are plenty of ways to instill discipline children that are effective, and don't involve hitting. How can we teach children that physical violence is an inappropriate tool if that's one that they're shown repeatedly by their parents? I have never spanked my kids, yet they are polite, respectful and reasonably well behaved.
I was spanked as a child, and all it taught me was to fear my father. I still flinch from people occasionally. If someone approaches me physically without warning( say tugging on the hood of my sweatshirt) it's complete fight or flight. I didn't learn discipline from it but I did learn to keep my mouth shut and to stay the f*** away from everyone.

You could have learned that without the violence.

I was spanked as a child and I never feared my parents. My mom did other tools like time outs, taking away privileges, talking to me, and she also gave me a taste of my own medicine. My mom also used to warn me with "Do you want a spanking?" and she always curled her lips when she was about to hit. So that was a cue. o after a while we all thought every time she curled her lips, she was going to spank us so we have ran from her. It took her a while to figure out why we were running and she figured out it was her curling her lips.

She also hit us out of anger and I don't think she counts it as a spanking because she told me she only spanked me about five times in my life and then after that she didn't need to anymore because it was effective. She hit because her dad did and he always hit when mad and she didn't like it and she didn't like doing it to us so it took her years to not do it. But spanking was something else. She didn't slap us around or nothing, she yelled but not a lot like some parents do.

I don't think kids should be spanked for every time they do something wrong because then I think it may teach them fear and they would be too afraid of doing anything because they wouldn't know what would be wrong so a warning is good. I was fortunate I didn't learn fear because I still did stuff without fearing what if it gets me into trouble because I didn't know.

But spanking did teach me to hit when kids don't listen and I was ten when mom told me only parents can do that and it's their job, not mine and kids are not allowed to hit other kids. I took it all literal because of my aspie mind and I also took stuff from my brothers as a way to control them because that is what mom did to me. I thought then parents had kids to control them and to dictate them. That was the idea I had in my head for years until my late teens. But Mom only took stuff from me as a consequence when I would do something wrong and I lost privileges was all. I was also the sort of person that needed to be punished or else I would have thought it was okay to do if there was no consequence. So I learned if you don't follow the rules, there is a consequence. I remember seeing a boy in my class running in our classroom with his pants pulled down and out teacher always told him no. Because she never punished him for it, I always thought it was an okay thing for him to do. I remember I started doing it and other kids and out teacher told us to not do what this boy does. But yet when he and another boy would refuse to come inside after recess would end, they always lost toy time so I knew then it was not okay to stay on the playground when the bell rings because they got a punishment.

Some children don't need to be punished to listen because all you have to do is tell them no and they listen or talk to them about it and the listen but some kids will not take notice and still do it so you have to punish them for it.

I find spankings fine just as long as it's done in moderation. If it's not effective with your child, then a spanking isn't right for them. I wouldn't spank my son for acting up if it's because he is tired or because he is hungry. I also wouldn't give him other punishments either. You have to know as a parent why a child is acting a certain way before you punish them. If my son is acting up in public because he is bored, I leave, not punish him. When I saw my dying grandmother, I was only there for a half hour and had to leave because my son was getting restless and starting to act up and he was grabbing at his strolling hinting to me he wanted to leave so I left. At least I got to see her for the last time so that was good enough and I took movies of her too and my son being there. I don't always spank and if I do, it's two or three swats, sometimes one. We have used tons of time outs with him. If he is throwing water out of the tub while taking a bath, I tell him I will make him come out if he doesn't keep the water in the tub. One more offense, I take him out. No spanking.

I am sure there are some parents out there who did spank their child and saw how effective it was so they started using it as a short cut instead of trying other tools first and I don't think that is good. I have seen my son behave all of a sudden after I slap his behind twice after I have tried other approaches first. but I sure don't want to use spankings as the first method only when he doesn't listen. But I also think I shouldn't have to spank him to get him to finally listen because everything else failed. I can say the same thing about consequences, people and kids shouldn't have to get a consequence to learn their lesson. People shouldn't even have to get a ticket to follow traffic laws or have to go to prison to finally follow the laws. But these things happen. But yet there are people out there that still don't learn anything after being given a consequence or going to jail or getting a ticket, especially getting spanked. It's usually due to an illness I hear. Like if you decided to punish a learning disabled child for getting bad grades, nothing would be effective because of their disability. So it has always bothered me when I'd hear about parents punishing their kids for getting a bad grade but maybe my mind is clouded because I have a disability and I know me getting punished for it wouldn't do me any good. That is what I suspect about people who are anti spankers, where they came from, whatever happened to them, their minds are clouded. If you had a father who was always beating your mother or a mother who was always slapping you around without doing any other approaches nor ever talking to you about your behavior, then yeah you are going to think all spanking is bad and ASSume that is what people are talking about when they mention spanking their kids when it's nothing like you went through. You are going to ASSume those parents do to their kids yours did to you. It's called projection.

I even see people say we shouldn't have to have laws like with cell phone use while driving or having car seat laws or seat belt laws but we do because people weren't using their common sense for their safety and their child's so we have to have laws for it. I say the same about spankings, if spanking a child is the only way to get them to learn because all the other approaches you have done failed, do it. But I don't think it should be used as the only method and as the first approach.