Catholic midwives win right to not help with abortion plans

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Tequila
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26 Apr 2013, 9:19 am

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Ethical questions

It is a farcical situation that a Scottish court has ruled that two midwives can opt out of doing their job on religious grounds (your report, 25 April).

This judgment has shown once again that it is possible to get away with the most outrageous breaches of truth and morality if you simply dress it up in the pious language of scripture.

How exactly it is moral to refuse to treat vulnerable ­patients based on such ancient writings? If a vegan took a job at a slaughterhouse and then objected to the slaughtering of animals on ethical grounds we would say that person should not have taken the job in the first place.


And the story in question:

Quote:
Catholic midwives win right to object over abortion planning in Scotland
  • Scottish court of appeal permits conscientious objection 'to the whole process of treatment' in terminations
Two Roman Catholic midwives have won the right to refuse to help with any abortion procedures or planning after an appeal court ruling in Scotland.

Judges in Edinburgh ruled that Mary Doogan, 58, and Concepta Wood, 52, who worked as labour ward co-ordinators in Glasgow, had a legal right to consciously object to helping with abortions in any way.

The ruling, which could be appealed against by Greater Glasgow and Clyde health board, may have wide ramifications for the NHS and other health staff who oppose abortions on religious grounds.


Yet again, organised religion gets the right to make a nuisance of itself in the workplace.



ModusPonens
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26 Apr 2013, 10:53 am

Well, I defend the right to conscientious objectors not to engage in killing. But of course, if I'm a conscientious objector, I'm not going to join the military to work. Being a social worker entails advising a pregnant woman in chosing between, for example, having an abortion or having a risk pregnancy. That is something I would refuse to do, so I would never work as a social worker. Same thing for an obstetrician. On the other hand, not the same thing as, for example, being a doctor in Switzerland and be forced to, as part of his job, perform euthanasia (I don't think that happens, but I'm just saying). So there's not an obvious universal rule applicable, which makes legislating this dificult.



visagrunt
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26 Apr 2013, 12:30 pm

There are a few of factors at play here, now the least of which is the question of the relationship between these two women and the Health Board. Are these two women employees of GG&C Health Board, or are they professionals who bill for their services? The degree to which they are free to provide or withhold their services is grounded in the nature of their contractual relationship.

Assuming that they are employees, I think it is unfair to draw the analogy of the vegan in the slaughterhouse. They are midwives. They trained and took up their employment for the primary purpose of delivering babies, and protecting maternal and perinatal health--not performing abortions. But that point notwithstanding, if their employer offers abortion services to pregnant women, then in my view they are placed in the ethical position of fulfiling the terms of their employment or resigning. While I firmly support the right of dissent, I do not support the right to selective performance. If a requirement of your job is repugnant to you, your proper course of action is to leave that job, and allow someone who is capable and willing to do that job.

On the other hand, if they are professionals, they are free to pick and choose the kinds of work that they will do, so long as they do not agree to provide services to a patient, and then leave her high and dry without referring her to another professional who can provide the help that the patient is seeking.


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Tequila
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26 Apr 2013, 12:54 pm

ModusPonens wrote:
Same thing for an obstetrician. On the other hand, not the same thing as, for example, being a doctor in Switzerland and be forced to, as part of his job, perform euthanasia (I don't think that happens, but I'm just saying).


In CH, there are several organisations that specifically deal with assisted suicides. Dignitas is the most famous one.



Tequila
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26 Apr 2013, 12:57 pm

visagrunt wrote:
Assuming that they are employees, I think it is unfair to draw the analogy of the vegan in the slaughterhouse. They are midwives. They trained and took up their employment for the primary purpose of delivering babies, and protecting maternal and perinatal health--not performing abortions. But that point notwithstanding, if their employer offers abortion services to pregnant women, then in my view they are placed in the ethical position of fulfiling the terms of their employment or resigning. While I firmly support the right of dissent, I do not support the right to selective performance. If a requirement of your job is repugnant to you, your proper course of action is to leave that job, and allow someone who is capable and willing to do that job.


From scanning Google, I get the impression that these people would work for the NHS trust.

If their religious beliefs are so important to them that it stops them doing their job, they shouldn't be in that job.



duncvis
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26 Apr 2013, 3:45 pm

Tequila wrote:
If their religious beliefs are so important to them that it stops them doing their job, they shouldn't be in that job.


This. They have the right to any belief they want, but if it prevents them from doing the job they are contracted to perform it's time to look for another job. You don't get to pick and choose which bits of your job you mind doing.


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Tequila
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26 Apr 2013, 3:51 pm

duncvis wrote:
Tequila wrote:
If their religious beliefs are so important to them that it stops them doing their job, they shouldn't be in that job.


This. They have the right to any belief they want, but if it prevents them from doing the job they are contracted to perform it's time to look for another job. You don't get to pick and choose which bits of your job you mind doing.


The obvious other reason for that is that it would of course cause havoc if people got ad hoc exemptions on religious grounds. People might well push for considerations that they don't really need, just because the specific religion or point of view 'entitles' them to have that exemption.



LKL
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28 Apr 2013, 5:37 pm

Whether or not this is reasonable would seem, to me, to depend on what the job description was before these people signed up for it. If they knew that they'd be expected to assist in abortions, then they shouldn't have signed up for this job; otoh, if that was added in later, I can see where they might have some valid objections.



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30 Apr 2013, 10:41 am

If the needs of the secular state are to rule ueber alles, then we must ban conscientious objection to military service. If the secular state says that someone must die, then there must be no grounds permitted for refusing to kill.



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30 Apr 2013, 1:00 pm

bryanmaloney wrote:
If the needs of the secular state are to rule ueber alles, then we must ban conscientious objection to military service. If the secular state says that someone must die, then there must be no grounds permitted for refusing to kill.


That's very different from this case. If someone signs up for military service and then refuses to fire a rifle because of his beliefs, he shouldn't have joined up in the first place. In most civilized places, there is no draft anyway.
If you apply for a job as midwife in a country where abortion is legal, you can expect that it will come up in the future. I do believe a period of transition: make an exception for the people who were midwives or doctors before abortion was introduced.



visagrunt
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30 Apr 2013, 1:08 pm

bryanmaloney wrote:
If the needs of the secular state are to rule ueber alles, then we must ban conscientious objection to military service. If the secular state says that someone must die, then there must be no grounds permitted for refusing to kill.


There is a very great difference from being employed in a job from which one can resign for any reason at any time and being enlisted in the armed forces from which must must apply, and may be refused a discharge.


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30 Apr 2013, 1:45 pm

We can't afford to lose out on midwives. We have very few and it is not a profession which attracts many.

Therefore, it makes sense to allow them to opt out of a minor part of their job in the event that they disagree with it as strongly as many religious people do. I think they're wrong to disagree with it, but that doesn't change the fact that they do, and they may even think they will be damned to eternal punishment if they take part in an abortion.

Of course, we could create a new job called "birth midwife" or similar, and these people would be excluded from abortions, but that to me seems like unnecessary bureaucracy.



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30 Apr 2013, 2:16 pm

Do you not believe in freedom of religion? Why would you force somebody to violate their beliefs? Would you support forcing medical professionals to preform infant circumcisions against their personal beliefs?



visagrunt
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30 Apr 2013, 2:45 pm

It depends upon whether the physician in question is an independent contractor, or an employee.

Freedom of religion permits an employee to resign, and to set reasonable accommodations for religious observance. It does not, in my view, extend to permission to abdicate professional responsibility to provide care for patients.


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30 Apr 2013, 3:21 pm

Jacoby wrote:
Do you not believe in freedom of religion? Why would you force somebody to violate their beliefs? Would you support forcing medical professionals to preform infant circumcisions against their personal beliefs?


I think that depends on whether the procedure is done for religious reasons or medical reasons. For Jews it is usually done by a mohel as far as I know, so medical professionals have nothing to do with it. If it is done for medical reasons, of course the medical professional should do his job. In countries where the government (=taxpayers) pays for healthcare, I feel religious circumcisions should be paid for by the people who participate in that, not the taxpayers.
Look at this map and see where circumcision is common. Mostly Islamic s**tholes. Why it is somewhat popular (between 20-80%) in Northern America is a mystery to me.

Image



Jacoby
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30 Apr 2013, 3:24 pm

visagrunt wrote:
It depends upon whether the physician in question is an independent contractor, or an employee.

Freedom of religion permits an employee to resign, and to set reasonable accommodations for religious observance. It does not, in my view, extend to permission to abdicate professional responsibility to provide care for patients.


Refusing to preform an unnecessary procedure is not abdicating their professional responsibility in my opinion. The line is drawn for me when harm may actually come to patient if not acted upon.