Page 1 of 2 [ 17 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

GnosisAndNihilism
Butterfly
Butterfly

User avatar

Joined: 16 May 2013
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 12
Location: NW USA

17 May 2013, 11:11 pm

I thought about putting this in the art or literature forums, but I think it really belongs here. Although we would, of course, be Superman mythicists that really doesn't prevent you from engaging in the religion (look at modern Gnostics and Satanists, for example). I really enjoy Superman comics as literature, of course, but I also think there is a deep and abiding significance to him which is not entirely intentional. He embodies so many symbols, he is the Logos of the sun. My favorite is Silver Age Superman with Curt Swan's art - Superman is God and Curt Swan is his prophet!

I have a serious interest in putting together literature on Superman as a religious figure - his Christ and Krishna character, his omnipotence and omniscience. The death of Superman mirrors not only the Christian resurrection stories but the more ancient story of the sun/sky god who destroys the chaos monster to save the world, dies in the process, and returns. I think it would be interesting to put together a Superman 'canon', a list of which comics are considered part of the official church literature.

This probably seems like a joke to many people, especially those who aren't in comic books, but I think it's accurate to say that comic books are modern mythology and no one embodies the Thunder Perfect Mind like the Man of Steel - who came from heaven, is superior in every way, and strives not only to live as humans but to do right by them. Worship, of course, is beside the point - rather, one wants to find oneself and understanding of the world to become like gods.

In Kingdom Come there is such a church, and of course many Superman comics have veiled or overt religious tones. An interesting point, Superman (at least in the Silver Age) worshipped the Kryptonian deity Rao, which is a name of Shiva - aka Galactus! Thanos is also an excellent personification of death, the will to death as a principle, the striving for vain power solely to annihilate the Universe which so offends us by alienating us. Jim Starlin's trippy work on this all-powerful anti-god bears a stark resemblance to early Zoroastrian dualism'sAhriman. Thanos means 'death', much like 'Mot', the death monster who fights the Sun God/son of God.

These are kind of disconnected ideas, but I think you might see what I mean: it is at least conceivable to put together a mythology and liturgical practice out of comic books. I just wish I knew someone else who was actually interested in it. Certainly finding icons wouldn't be a problem.



MCalavera
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,442

18 May 2013, 2:22 am

What makes this a joke isn't that you involved Superman. The joke is you think the concept of sun god and son of God are historically related to each other when it is, in fact, a connection that only recent frauds came up with in a vain attempt to discredit Christianity.

Even though Christianity is based on a lot of falsehoods, yours is just as ridiculous.



Webwah
Emu Egg
Emu Egg

User avatar

Joined: 17 May 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 2

18 May 2013, 7:33 am

Ignore the "believers" there are a number of different religious strains in Superman, from his Moses inspired origin, to his Jewish name "el" is from Hebron- e.g. Elohim, Elijah, etc. meaning strong or there's the Canaanite deity named El. In addition, the overtly Christian themes used in the superman movies. There was a story Jon Bogdanove did directly connecting Superman to the Jewish myth of the Golem as well. I love the idea, and would love to do some thinking or contributing to a list for "canon". Thing is, would writings outside of the comics be considered? There are some great books about superman, and one novel in particular (Elliot S. Maggin's Miracle Monday) has Satan as the villain.



MCalavera
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,442

18 May 2013, 8:40 am

I don't think you realize what the OP is insinuating. Try not to be sneaky next time and refer to me as a "believer". When I see words like "mythicists", "Sun God/son of God", "death of Superman mirrors not only the Christian resurrection stories", I know exactly what he's trying to get at. The Superman theme is just a cover.



Webwah
Emu Egg
Emu Egg

User avatar

Joined: 17 May 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 2

18 May 2013, 12:27 pm

Yep. I don't know. I don't even know what "OP" means. I am really old, and never post to message boards cause the learning curve is generally pretty steep. I just know Superman stuff.



GnosisAndNihilism
Butterfly
Butterfly

User avatar

Joined: 16 May 2013
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 12
Location: NW USA

19 May 2013, 4:39 pm

MCalavera wrote:
What makes this a joke isn't that you involved Superman. The joke is you think the concept of sun god and son of God are historically related to each other when it is, in fact, a connection that only recent frauds came up with in a vain attempt to discredit Christianity.

Even though Christianity is based on a lot of falsehoods, yours is just as ridiculous.

Earl Doherty, "Jesus Neither God Nor Man"
Robert M. Price, "The Christ Myth Theory and Its Problems"
Your argument is not with me, it is with religious history. Jesus was not a real person, he was a hystoricized Gnostic sun god.

However, your attitude is counter-productive and I will no longer sanction it by replying to you.

Everyone else, thank you for commenting.



Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 45,429
Location: Stendec

19 May 2013, 5:03 pm

Ignoring everyone who disagrees with you is a very closed-minded practice.



MCalavera
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,442

19 May 2013, 5:04 pm

GnosisAndNihilism wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
What makes this a joke isn't that you involved Superman. The joke is you think the concept of sun god and son of God are historically related to each other when it is, in fact, a connection that only recent frauds came up with in a vain attempt to discredit Christianity.

Even though Christianity is based on a lot of falsehoods, yours is just as ridiculous.

Earl Doherty, "Jesus Neither God Nor Man"
Robert M. Price, "The Christ Myth Theory and Its Problems"
Your argument is not with me, it is with religious history. Jesus was not a real person, he was a hystoricized Gnostic sun god.

However, your attitude is counter-productive and I will no longer sanction it by replying to you.

Everyone else, thank you for commenting.


I knew it!

I'm so familiar with these Acharyan tactics after many years of debating with people quite ignorant of history that I knew exactly what you were on about with your post.

Next time, be a little more honest and straightforward rather than disguising things in Superman terms because there are people who are familiar with enough material to read between the lines.

Oh, and as much as Earl Doherty is wrong, he himself would disagree with you that Jesus was meant to be a Sun God. :lol:



GnosisAndNihilism
Butterfly
Butterfly

User avatar

Joined: 16 May 2013
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 12
Location: NW USA

19 May 2013, 5:04 pm

Fnord wrote:
Ignoring everyone who disagrees with you is a very closed-minded practice.

Ignoring snarky pointless arguments with social retards is a very practical thing to do.



MCalavera
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,442

19 May 2013, 5:05 pm

GnosisAndNihilism wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Ignoring everyone who disagrees with you is a very closed-minded practice.

Ignoring snarky pointless arguments with social retards is a very practical thing to do.


Face it. You can't handle the facts.



Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 45,429
Location: Stendec

19 May 2013, 6:48 pm

MCalavera wrote:
GnosisAndNihilism wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Ignoring everyone who disagrees with you is a very closed-minded practice.
Ignoring snarky pointless arguments with social retards is a very practical thing to do.
Face it. You can't handle the facts.

Yeah, those facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of those facts, and they do not cease to exist just because somebody wants to ignore them.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." -- Daniel Patrick Moynihan



Bezeone
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 24 Nov 2012
Age: 24
Gender: Male
Posts: 314
Location: NC, USA

19 May 2013, 8:28 pm

GnosisAndNihilism wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
What makes this a joke isn't that you involved Superman. The joke is you think the concept of sun god and son of God are historically related to each other when it is, in fact, a connection that only recent frauds came up with in a vain attempt to discredit Christianity.

Even though Christianity is based on a lot of falsehoods, yours is just as ridiculous.

Earl Doherty, "Jesus Neither God Nor Man"
Robert M. Price, "The Christ Myth Theory and Its Problems"
Your argument is not with me, it is with religious history. Jesus was not a real person, he was a hystoricized Gnostic sun god.

However, your attitude is counter-productive and I will no longer sanction it by replying to you.

Everyone else, thank you for commenting.


So you're saying that there wasn't a Jesus that fits the part when he was crucified?

Edit: Lousy keyboard...



Last edited by Bezeone on 19 May 2013, 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

arielhawksquill
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jun 2008
Age: 44
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,830
Location: Midwest

19 May 2013, 8:47 pm

This idea has already been thoroughly explored in books like _Our Gods Wear Spandex: The Secret History of Comic Book Superheroes_ by Chris Knowles and _Mutants and Mystics: Science Fiction, Superhero Comics, and the Paranormal_ by Jeff Kripal. Superman himself was the focus of Grant Morrison's book _Supergods: What Masked Vigilantes, Miraculous Mutants, and a Sun God from Smallville Can Teach Us About Being Human_, and Morrison's run on "All Star Superman" was blatant theology.



WorldsEdge
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 458
Location: Massachusetts

19 May 2013, 9:04 pm

GnosisAndNihilism wrote:
In Kingdom Come there is such a church, and of course many Superman comics have veiled or overt religious tones. An interesting point, Superman (at least in the Silver Age) worshipped the Kryptonian deity Rao, which is a name of Shiva - aka Galactus!


I don't think even Superman is powerful enough to cross from one comic book company to another. :roll:


_________________
"The man who has fed the chicken every day throughout its life at last wrings its neck instead, showing that more refined views as to the uniformity of nature would have been useful to the chicken." ? Bertrand Russell


WorldsEdge
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 458
Location: Massachusetts

19 May 2013, 9:21 pm

MCalavera wrote:
What makes this a joke isn't that you involved Superman. The joke is you think the concept of sun god and son of God are historically related to each other when it is, in fact, a connection that only recent frauds came up with in a vain attempt to discredit Christianity.

Even though Christianity is based on a lot of falsehoods, yours is just as ridiculous.


Given the synreticism inherent in Christianity from just about the get-go and for hundreds of years afterwards, I'm not sure why you're necessarily saying this. I admit that I haven't the foggiest idea what the point trying to be made in the OP is, but it seems a bit much to expect a new religion with initially only a few followers to NOT crib a few things from the main culture. Which in this case would have been a thoroughly Hellenized eastern Mediterranean. And said mythic tradition certainly had its share of divine births and even a few rebirths.


_________________
"The man who has fed the chicken every day throughout its life at last wrings its neck instead, showing that more refined views as to the uniformity of nature would have been useful to the chicken." ? Bertrand Russell


Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 45,429
Location: Stendec

19 May 2013, 10:21 pm

People, I have a hunch that G&N is not going to be visiting WP for a while.