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NeantHumain
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19 Nov 2005, 6:23 pm

I found an interesting article while browsing EBSCOhost for fun (yes, I have "boring" interests sometimes). The article is called "Psychopathy, Sociopathy, and Crime," and it was written by David T. Lykken and published in the first issue of the 34th volume of Society in November/December 1996.

In it, Lykken makes some interesting contentions: that some psychopaths are not dysfunctional. Their characteristic fearlessness and adventuresomeness actually leads them to good roles in society.

Lykken wrote:
As used by the media, "psychopath" conveys an impression of danger and implacable evil. This is mistaken, however, as Cleckley made very clear. Like the unsocialized sociopath, the psychopath is characterized by a lack of the restraining effect of conscience and of empathic concern for other people. Unlike the ordinary sociopath, the primary psychopath has failed to develop conscience and empathic feelings, not because of a lack of socializing experience but, rather, because of some inherent psychological peculiarity that makes him especially difficult to socialize. An additional consequence of this innate peculiarity is that the psychopath behaves in a way that suggests that he is relatively indifferent to the probability of punishment for his actions. This essential peculiarity of the psychopath is not in itself evil or vicious, but combined with perverse appetites or with an unusually hostile and aggressive temperament, the lack of these normal constraints can result in an explosive and dangerous package.

Here Lykken seems to mean that, although all primary psychopaths fail to develop a conscience and empathic feelings for other people, not all of them are "evil." However, in combination with a tendency towards aggression or perverse desires, a psychopath would feel few emotional restraints against acting on their impulses. The distinction is that not all of them have such impulses.
Lykken wrote:
In marked contrast to these dangerous characters, and illustrative of why psychologists find such fascination in the psychopath, is the case of Oscar Schindler, the savior of hundreds of Krakow 'Jews, the protagonist of Steven Spielberg's Schindler's List. Opportunist, bon vivant, ladies's man, manipulator, unsuccessful in legitimate business by his own admission but wildly successful in the moral chaos of wartime, Schindler's rescue of those Jews can be best understood as a thirty-five-year-old man's response to a kind of ultimate challenge: Schindler against the Third Reich. Any swine could kill people under the conditions of that time and place; the real challenge—in the words that his biographer may have put in his mouth, the "real power"—lay in rescuing people, especially in rescuing Jews, Some parts of Spielberg's film do not fit with my diagnosis of Schindler as a primary psychopath, in particular, the scene near the end in which Schindler breaks down in tears while addressing his Jewish workers, British filmmaker Jon Blair, whose earlier documentary film Schindler was truer to history than Spielberg's feature film, noted this same discrepancy. "It was slightly out of character, and, of course, it never actually happened," Blair said.

So Schindler was an unemotional person with many of the traits of a psychopath, yet he chose a good course of action despite his postulated lack of true empathy, possibly for the fun of the challenge.
Lykken wrote:
Some other biographies of colorful primary psychopaths include N. von Hoffman's Citizen Cohn, Neil Sheehan's A Bright Shining Lie: John Paul Vann and America in Vietnam, and Daniel Akst's Wonderboy: Barry Minkow, the Kid Who Swindled Wall Street. Some historical figures who, I believe, had the talent for psychopathy but who achieved great worldly success include Lyndon Johnson, Winston Churchill, the explorer Sir Richard Burton, and Chuck Yeager, the first man to break the sound barrier.

The fact that many of these illustrative characters were not adjudicated criminals reminds us that we are talking here about a class of actors rather than a pattern of actions. Psychopaths are at high risk for engaging in criminal behavior, but not all of them succumb to that risk. Even the identical twins of criminal psychopaths, with whom they share all their genes and many of their formative experiences, do not necessarily become criminal themselves. To mention Churchill, Johnson, Burton, and Yeager in this context may seem especially surprising, but all four set out as daring, adventurous, unconventional youngsters who began playing by their own rules early in life. Talent, opportunity, and plain luck enabled them to achieve success and self-esteem through (mainly) licit rather than illicit means. Johnson and Burton were borderline psychopaths, if we can believe their biographers, while Churchill and Yeager seem merely to have shared what I call the "talent for psychopathy." What I believe to be the nature of this talent will be explicated later in this article.



sandra3
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19 Nov 2005, 8:38 pm

well i guess even the most crazy people can fuction well in society.



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22 Nov 2005, 6:40 am

Hmmmm.... This doesn't sound too far from me.


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Larval
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27 Nov 2005, 6:52 pm

I couldn't find this article. Strange. It would have been useful for me.

Oh well.



Oleg
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08 Dec 2005, 10:28 pm

So, Oscar Schindler decided to save Jews not because he had conscience, but just for fun of the challenge?



Larval
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08 Dec 2005, 10:37 pm

Oleg wrote:
So, Oscar Schindler decided to save Jews not because he had conscience, but just for fun of the challenge?


Apparently, if you believe the author of the article at least.

Really makes you wonder, doesn't it?

Oh, NeantHumain was kind enough to have the article emailed to me. Thanks NeantHumain.



NeantHumain
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26 Dec 2005, 6:47 pm

I wonder if "good psychopaths" display this characteristic:

William Hathaway wrote:
People who deal with psychopaths have observed another shared quality, one not on the checklist or easily measured. There is something different about their eyes. The gaze of the psychopath is disquieting, even frightening, and has been described as cold or penetrating, empty, reptilian, not quite human.

Source:
Hathaway, William. "Contours of Evil." 18 Dec. 2005. courant.com. Hartford, Connecticut: Hartford Courant, 2005. 24 Dec. 2005 <http://www.courant.com/news/health/hc-psychopathbrain1218.artdec18,0,209514.story?page=2&coll=hc-headlines-health>.



Larval
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26 Dec 2005, 7:20 pm

NeantHumain wrote:
I wonder if "good psychopaths" display this characteristic:
William Hathaway wrote:
People who deal with psychopaths have observed another shared quality, one not on the checklist or easily measured. There is something different about their eyes. The gaze of the psychopath is disquieting, even frightening, and has been described as cold or penetrating, empty, reptilian, not quite human.

Source:
Hathaway, William. "Contours of Evil." 18 Dec. 2005. courant.com. Hartford, Connecticut: Hartford Courant, 2005. 24 Dec. 2005 <http://www.courant.com/news/health/hc-psychopathbrain1218.artdec18,0,209514.story?page=2&coll=hc-headlines-health>.


Depends. "Good" psychopaths would have to be (or at least appear) somewhat trustworthy, at least to those who they depend on/work with/use, so they would probably hide such eyes from those people. But to their enemies, they may very well have those cold eyes. Indeed, this is most curious.



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26 Dec 2005, 8:09 pm

I wish to say i am currently of limited time.

I LOVE YOUR TOPICS and i will get back to it later.

i feel bad because i generally enjoy being one of the first to respond.

offer up my ANTI-OPINION, of sorts.

NEANT you have an interresting mind.

A place of which i am terribly afraid to visit.


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Malaclypse
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29 Dec 2005, 10:58 am

I just wanted to say that psychopaths are so irresistibly... gnnnnn... COOL! Okay, there, I said it. I know, I know, but, dammit, they are almost like the super hero version of an aspie or something. The super bad guys, at least, but with super powers nonetheless. Man they're cool (and man I hope no relatives of victims ever read this)! I've read lots of articles and a few biographies and they sure remind me of myself, other than that I have an automatic block against hurting people and that I'm a coward. I know this isn't a joking matter, and I'm being serious; I can't help feeling like this. They're unpredictable, systematic, extremely sharp, with a feeling of superiority, they strike back with enormous hate when they are pushed around, they become completely INSANE!! ! when they come into their own, and so on... Forget weather disasters and scary movies about giant sharks when there's serial killers and psychopaths in general!
My favourite is Theodore Kasczhxchxynski (sp?) since he had a good cause - fight society's lack of consideration for nature.
They all lack something pushing them, as you say. They're a product of our environment, no doubt. Tribal people have nothing like it in their entire history. Too much stress activates their malfunctioning frontal lobes.
And sorry if this scares anyone. To calm such reactions let's say that they would be equally cool if they did something constructive instead, as long as it was ruthless and unpredictably intricate etc.



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29 Dec 2005, 5:51 pm

Malaclypse wrote:
I just wanted to say that psychopaths are so irresistibly... gnnnnn... COOL! Okay, there, I said it. I know, I know, but, dammit, they are almost like the super hero version of an aspie or something. The super bad guys, at least, but with super powers nonetheless. Man they're cool (and man I hope no relatives of victims ever read this)! I've read lots of articles and a few biographies and they sure remind me of myself, other than that I have an automatic block against hurting people and that I'm a coward. I know this isn't a joking matter, and I'm being serious; I can't help feeling like this. They're unpredictable, systematic, extremely sharp, with a feeling of superiority, they strike back with enormous hate when they are pushed around, they become completely INSANE!! ! when they come into their own, and so on... Forget weather disasters and scary movies about giant sharks when there's serial killers and psychopaths in general!
My favourite is Theodore Kasczhxchxynski (sp?) since he had a good cause - fight society's lack of consideration for nature.
They all lack something pushing them, as you say. They're a product of our environment, no doubt. Tribal people have nothing like it in their entire history. Too much stress activates their malfunctioning frontal lobes.
And sorry if this scares anyone. To calm such reactions let's say that they would be equally cool if they did something constructive instead, as long as it was ruthless and unpredictably intricate etc.


That is a disturbing attitude. If they were good people maybe, but the fact is that they exploit, hurt, and sometimes kill other people - and they don't care. They aren't supervillians at all - they are the common hard[censored], the cheat, the thief, the con man. They are nothing special, other than the fact they could care less about what happens to you or their other victims.

According to Neanthuman the examples in that article are not real psychopaths anyways - they just share a few baseline characteristics.



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29 Dec 2005, 6:49 pm

Not at all Larval

You will have encountered psychopaths in everday life just as I do but we do not look at them and go "oh a psychopath" because we connotate the word to mean the media perception of a psychopath. There are perfectly harmless psychopaths out there who are part of the world around us. You shouldn't also get confused with bringing judgements of peoples morality into it.

I notice one of the studies there is about the Vietnam conflict. Studies of behaviour of soldiers in wartime is fascinating stuff to read about, alot of reserach carried out on all sorts of human behaviour from leadership to PTSD. One thing that may be worth looking up is the Americain study into how squads operated in the Korean War. Apparently they worked out that only 1-2 men within a squad would actually be in the thick of the action fighting and keep the fight moving forward or holding unit cohesion. They found the other people would do essential jobs within the unit but would avoid fighting directly, not out of cowardice but as a kind of self defence mechanism so they had less chance of being in harms way (carrying ammunition, observation, messangers etc) I will have to try and find it again it was on a wargamer forum I was looking at made for a very interesting read as you could say there are cases for psychopathic behaviour both in the person fighting in the thick of the action or the individual not quite in the thick of it but still doing essential jobs.



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29 Dec 2005, 8:18 pm

Laz wrote:
Not at all Larval

You will have encountered psychopaths in everday life just as I do but we do not look at them and go "oh a psychopath" because we connotate the word to mean the media perception of a psychopath. There are perfectly harmless psychopaths out there who are part of the world around us. You shouldn't also get confused with bringing judgements of peoples morality into it.


Um ... all psychopaths are immoral. They lack the ability to feel guilt or remorse. The moral psychopath may exist (though Neanthumain thinks otherwise) I suppose, but I'd still be wary because of this inability.

As for perfectly harmless, it depends. They con you, steal from you, lie to you, manipulate you, even rape and kill you .. that is not harmless. There are no clear psychopaths who do not do those things - the ones mentioned by Lykken may not be actual psychopaths as none of them were ever actually tested for psychopathy.

Quote:
I notice one of the studies there is about the Vietnam conflict. you could say there are cases for psychopathic behaviour both in the person fighting in the thick of the action or the individual not quite in the thick of it but still doing essential jobs.


That's not really psychopathic....



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30 Dec 2005, 10:29 pm

One of my good friends falls into the psychopath bucket. We say sociopath, but I've seen him set off. Oooh, fireworks.
Lovely guy, as long as your goals coincide with his. He also deals with ADHD and bipolar disorder. It's hard to keep up with him at the best of times.
If he wants something, there is nothing that will stop him. Exceedingly attractive, charming to a fault when he has to be, but inside is a nasty monster waiting to come out. He was raised in a conservative, privileged family and has a lot of moral rules that come from that - not hitting girls, formal manners, pride in appearance and putting on a good face.
He's mad. He's so mad, and I think it's great. Insanity is sexy with this lad.
I have no doubt in my mind that he'd never hurt me intentionally, but I've seen him do it to people who mean less to him. Everything in his mind seems cold and rational, which I find soothing. No crazy social rubbish, it's all clear-cut unless he's playing a game with me, in which case I smile and go along with the silly, which is always obviously a game. Never a dull moment :)



Malaclypse
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01 Jan 2006, 12:39 am

Larval wrote:
That is a disturbing attitude. If they were good people maybe, but the fact is that they exploit, hurt, and sometimes kill other people - and they don't care. They aren't supervillians at all - they are the common hard[censored], the cheat, the thief, the con man. They are nothing special, other than the fact they could care less about what happens to you or their other victims.

According to Neanthuman the examples in that article are not real psychopaths anyways - they just share a few baseline characteristics.


I don't really need to answer this since it's already written, but let me point it out again:

are so irresistibly... gnnnnn...
[...]
I know, I know, but
[...]
The super bad guys, at least
[...]
I know this isn't a joking matter, and I'm being serious; I can't help feeling like this.
[...]
And sorry if this scares anyone. To calm such reactions let's say that they would be equally cool if they did something constructive instead, as long as it was ruthless and unpredictably intricate etc.

Consider the last part especially. Just to show you that yes, I'm well aware of it, but sure, I think it's important to spell your arguments out just in case someone easily tempted took my post to heart and started acting mad because of it.

"I don't mean to sound cruel or cold, but I am, so that's the way it comes out." - Bill Hicks



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02 Jan 2006, 1:39 am

My psychopath is not productive. He is on disability support and enjoying his wealthy family.
I have a sneaky feeling that if his family turned off the cash for a few months, he'd be thrown into a world of making money and he'd like it. Might even make his own fortune, like his father did. Crazy runs in the family :)