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ratzo
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22 Nov 2013, 3:52 pm

Can someone please explain national pride and patriotism to me? I notice a lot of it on the likes of facebook and the news, but I honestly cannot grasp the concept of being proud of your government or your country, I mean, it's not something you've done, how can one ideology be better or worse than another?

I'd really appreciate help in this, many thanks!


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wittgenstein
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22 Nov 2013, 4:04 pm

I agree. Patriotism at best should be only a feeling that does not determine behaviour.
If my country's policy is correct, I support it. If my country's policy is wrong I will not support it. Patriotism never enters the equation.


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22 Nov 2013, 4:07 pm

Don't feel bad, I am kinda meh about patriotism as well. Whatever serves my interest best (and does not harm people) is what I support. Although I will admit I am proud of my cultural heritage (Irish) :D .



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22 Nov 2013, 4:28 pm

It's called Basking In Reflected Glory. Sometimes people use their association with a successful group to improve their own self-esteem.



ratzo
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22 Nov 2013, 5:29 pm

jrjones9933 wrote:
It's called Basking In Reflected Glory. Sometimes people use their association with a successful group to improve their own self-esteem.


I just can't get my head around it, or people hating countries or races, it's all individuals, it actually confuses me when people talk about countries being better or worse rather than policies. But I guess the association issue is a good one for other people, don't think I'll ever understand



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22 Nov 2013, 5:30 pm

ratzo wrote:
how can one ideology be better or worse than another?!


Very easily: some are innately destructive and cause more misery than they are worth. No ideology is perfect but they are not all created equally. Some are built on assumptions that are more questionable than the theories that others are built on. I personally find that the Marxist theory that workers are alienated from their labour has more intellectual merit that the Nazi idea that the 'Aryan race' is superior. That's another way that some ideologies are better than other, but it's still subjective.

Anyway, I agree with you about nationalism. I don't understand it, myself.


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22 Nov 2013, 5:31 pm

jrjones9933 wrote:
It's called Basking In Reflected Glory. Sometimes people use their association with a successful group to improve their own self-esteem.


Oh. Funny things, people are.


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22 Nov 2013, 7:01 pm

National pride doesn't make any sense to me, it's just arbitrary lines drawn on a map to designate who gets to steal tax money from you.
As someone living in Portland, I have more in common with someone from Vancouver,BC than someone from Miami, but because of a line drawn on a map, I am expected to side with the person from Miami.


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22 Nov 2013, 7:01 pm

Speaking of which, I wonder why our Republican brethren haven't yet entered the discussion?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUPMjC9mq5Y[/youtube]


Usually, they love to tell everyone how much they love America, guns, the Constitution and the Founding Fathers.



jrjones9933
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22 Nov 2013, 7:03 pm

Yeah, wheres the appeal to tradition?



Nambo
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23 Nov 2013, 5:21 am

Maybe a sense of "belonging" is also involved?
Humans need to feel they belong somewhere, from a family, to a national level, so I think folk would feel patriotic about their country in the same way they feel part of their family.
They will also feel proud in the past glories of their country as they do about any achievements other family members might have done.

I only feel nostalgic patriotism, Iam proud of Britain in the 1960s when I felt it was a good country and that I belonged to it.

I detest it now so replace it with Prussian patriotism, so I can get the feeling I belong somewhere, as Prussia was taken from us and given to Poland and the greater proportion of Prussians suffered genocide after the war, Iam unlikely to have to face the probably reality that I would feel equally out of place in Prussia as I do in England.

My point being that patriotism is probably a reflection of the Human need to belong to a collective group.



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23 Nov 2013, 8:37 am

Nambo wrote:
Prussia was taken from us and given to Poland


Wasn't it evenly split between Russia and Poland?

As Prussia no longer exists, you would definitely feel out of place there.



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23 Nov 2013, 12:07 pm

pete1061 wrote:
National pride doesn't make any sense to me, it's just arbitrary lines drawn on a map to designate who gets to steal tax money from you.
As someone living in Portland, I have more in common with someone from Vancouver,BC than someone from Miami, but because of a line drawn on a map, I am expected to side with the person from Miami.

That's part of the reason why my ideal world would be fragmented into many countries. If the world was divided into a thousand countries, the concepts of national identity and imperialism would become less relevant. Government jurisdiction would become much less associated with identity. You could say that if there were no more powerful governments, that corporations would rule the world, but I believe that without the presence of powerful governments, the backbone of almost all widespread corruption would be destroyed. The system would operate a lot like anarchy on the global level, but there would be laws and order on the local level. Order would still be maintained, but the lack of a global hierarchy would prevent any person or group of people from becoming too powerful. Human nature would dictate that eventually the countries would defragment again to some extent, but an ideological code could be put in place that would cause the system to be preserved through collective nature, without the need of a global government to enforce it. It would work similarly to the constitutional conscience of a lot of people in the U.S., except there would be no central government backing it. It would be preserved in the minds of the global population, without there being any legal basis for it.

Realistically, it would be near impossible for a system like this to come to be, but it's still interesting to talk about what a potential global utopia might look like.



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23 Nov 2013, 12:52 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
Nambo wrote:
Prussia was taken from us and given to Poland


Wasn't it evenly split between Russia and Poland?

As Prussia no longer exists, you would definitely feel out of place there.


West Prussia was given to Poland following the Treaty of Versailles after the first world war.
When Hitler invaded Poland from the West, Stalin was invading it from the East, after the war ended, Stalin kept the Eastern areas of Poland he had taken, as an ally, it looked a bit bad as we had declared war on Germany supposedly to help Poland, so as compensation, East Prussia was given to Poland excepting the capital city of Konigsberg and its surrounding districts which Russia kept as it made a handy Port on the Baltic.

I would feel out of place anywhere but its nice to have a fantasy.



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24 Nov 2013, 10:27 am

ratzo wrote:
Can someone please explain national pride and patriotism to me? I notice a lot of it on the likes of facebook and the news, but I honestly cannot grasp the concept of being proud of your government or your country, I mean, it's not something you've done, how can one ideology be better or worse than another?

I'd really appreciate help in this, many thanks!

OK, you might be talking about two different things here.

1) Patriotism- being proud of your country and its values
2) Nationalism- thinking your country is superior to all others in every way, and its people are superior to other peoples

Patriotism is the feeling I get when I hear Three Lions, or think about the 2012 Olympic Opening Ceremony.
Nationalism is the domain of the BNP and the EDL.

I am proud of Britain's welfare state, NHS, comprehensive education, justice system, and football team*, but I think there are many ways they could improve. Our welfare state benefits millionaires ahead of the disabled; parts of our NHS are not caring enough; our children are not as literate as they should be; our justice system discriminates against ethnic minorities and men; our football team hasn't won anything for nearly 50 years.
Nationalism is when people defend the recently-publicised murder of an Afghan by British soldiers, or I guess what I feel like when I imagine losing the Ashes- irrational belief in the immutable superiority of your country.

*England, not any of the others