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skafather84
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04 Jun 2008, 12:07 pm

sac·ro·sanct Audio Help /ˈsækroʊˌsæŋkt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[sak-roh-sangkt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. extremely sacred or inviolable: a sacrosanct chamber in the temple.
2. not to be entered or trespassed upon: She considered her home office sacrosanct.
3. above or beyond criticism, change, or interference: a manuscript deemed sacrosanct.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sacrosanct



is it wise to basically say that a country is holy and beyond criticism?



LePetitPrince
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04 Jun 2008, 1:45 pm

Sounds like a religious divine duty to support Israel for any US gov.....

Do the Israelis feel the same toward US? hmmm



snake321
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04 Jun 2008, 2:01 pm

Yeah, AIPAC runs all our political representation. So like I've been saying, zionism has nothing to really do with jews, they just use the "jewish nation" as a PC ploy to shut out any criticism by making people think "anyone who questions us is anti-semetic".

There are also some jews too who are against zionism. It's not really about jews, it's about "elite" bloodlines coming together to rule the world... Some of those bloodlines are christian.



Mc_Jeff
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04 Jun 2008, 2:17 pm

Well, I guess there had to be something good about Obama.

I'd like to hear him say it in a CAIR board meeting, though.



skafather84
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04 Jun 2008, 2:31 pm

LePetitPrince wrote:
Sounds like a religious divine duty to support Israel for any US gov.....

Do the Israelis feel the same toward US? hmmm



the US is very popular there culturally but i doubt they have any kind of feeling of responsibility towards us like our government displays with them. the US politicians treat israel like their own kids: they spoil them, bail them out of trouble, give them excessive ammounts of money, and never hold them accountable for their actions.



crackedpleasures
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04 Jun 2008, 3:02 pm

Many Jews don't support Israel neither, there is a big difference between zionism and being jewish. Israel in itself is growing more and more into a secular country, with a surprisingly high number of people claiming to be atheist (although many will be considered Jew by birth)

Must admit though I personally do support the existance of Israel, without saying that the government are angels who don't do anything wrong. They should withdraw from the West Bank and Gaza and stop building new settlements there, for a start. But on the other hand it was Israel who was prepared to talk and negotiate from the earliest days on, when the UN made its partition plan prior to the independence of Israel.


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skafather84
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04 Jun 2008, 3:47 pm

crackedpleasures wrote:
Must admit though I personally do support the existance of Israel, without saying that the government are angels who don't do anything wrong.



at this point you kinda have to unless you're great at evacuation plans.

i have no problem with israel existing but it can't exist in its current incarnation nor with its current relationship in the middle east and to the US.



Mc_Jeff
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04 Jun 2008, 4:10 pm

I'm just not seeing how even the densest liberal can be pro-Palestine.

1) Israel vacates Gaza

2) Hamas responds by trying to kill them.

(Which, incidentally, is how Hamas responds to every single action Israel takes towards peace. Peace in the Middle East is a pipe dream until Islam begs for mercy.)

If anything, Israel should be reclaiming Gaza and establishing martial law in there. At the very least.



skafather84
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04 Jun 2008, 4:20 pm

Mc_Jeff wrote:
Peace in the Middle East is a pipe dream until Islam begs for mercy.



more like so long as two sets of idiots are both claiming divine will to a piece of worthless land.


is three generations deep considered to the point where the people are natural to the area? what i mean by that is: the people who lived in the area for hundreds of years are not the people in charge...the ones in charge are immigrants who moved there on account of their own manifest destiny.

i'm more curious than anything because for all intent and purposes, israel is a social experiment and nothing has been done like it before on such a scale in such an area....at least not without massive amounts of death on the level of genocide.



oscuria
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04 Jun 2008, 4:34 pm

skafather84 wrote:
Mc_Jeff wrote:
Peace in the Middle East is a pipe dream until Islam begs for mercy.



more like so long as two sets of idiots are both claiming divine will to a piece of worthless land.


is three generations deep considered to the point where the people are natural to the area? what i mean by that is: the people who lived in the area for hundreds of years are not the people in charge...the ones in charge are immigrants who moved there on account of their own manifest destiny.

i'm more curious than anything because for all intent and purposes, israel is a social experiment and nothing has been done like it before on such a scale in such an area....at least not without massive amounts of death on the level of genocide.


"Genocide" from both sides, right?


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crackedpleasures
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04 Jun 2008, 7:58 pm

skafather84 wrote:
crackedpleasures wrote:
Must admit though I personally do support the existance of Israel, without saying that the government are angels who don't do anything wrong.



at this point you kinda have to unless you're great at evacuation plans.

i have no problem with israel existing but it can't exist in its current incarnation nor with its current relationship in the middle east and to the US.


I do believe that the problems will come to an end. Even the most stubborn Arab countries like Saudi Arabia (the worst religious dictatorship in the world) is now prepared to talk to Israel if they allow the creation of the Palestinian state, which Israel has supported since day 1 (the two-state solution was always rejected by Palestine even when the Israelis agreed on leaving 66% of the land to Palestine). It seems it has finally sinked in that Israel will not just be washed away and therefor even their worst enemies seem finally prepared to negotiate and come to compromises. So this is a good sign, now if Iran joins the Arab world in finally step by step accepting Israel as a neighbour then we are close to a long-term solution.

I do have to say I find it deeply sad that something as religion is dividing a region in such a deep way while religions in theory should be uniting and not dividing. If one cannot stand his neighbour simply because of a different religion, I think this mentality is very sad. But let's not forget that we should not judge any citizen for acts of their government, the people of Israel and Palestine will happily settle for a partition while the politicians ignore the needs of their people and continue the fight.


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Do what Thou wilt shal be the whole of the Law.
Love is the Law, Love under Will. And...
every man and every woman is a star
(excerpt from The Book of the Law - Aleister Crowley)

"Od lo avda tikvateinu" (excerpt from the Israeli hymn)


Mc_Jeff
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04 Jun 2008, 8:04 pm

oscuria wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Mc_Jeff wrote:
Peace in the Middle East is a pipe dream until Islam begs for mercy.



more like so long as two sets of idiots are both claiming divine will to a piece of worthless land.


is three generations deep considered to the point where the people are natural to the area? what i mean by that is: the people who lived in the area for hundreds of years are not the people in charge...the ones in charge are immigrants who moved there on account of their own manifest destiny.

i'm more curious than anything because for all intent and purposes, israel is a social experiment and nothing has been done like it before on such a scale in such an area....at least not without massive amounts of death on the level of genocide.


"Genocide" from both sides, right?


Only one side.

The attempts at genocide are unique to the Palestinians.

If the Israelis had even the slightest urge to commit genocide on the Palestinians, they already would've. Instead, they voluntarily gave up their own land for a pipe dream.



skafather84
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04 Jun 2008, 8:30 pm

Mc_Jeff wrote:
oscuria wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Mc_Jeff wrote:
Peace in the Middle East is a pipe dream until Islam begs for mercy.



more like so long as two sets of idiots are both claiming divine will to a piece of worthless land.


is three generations deep considered to the point where the people are natural to the area? what i mean by that is: the people who lived in the area for hundreds of years are not the people in charge...the ones in charge are immigrants who moved there on account of their own manifest destiny.

i'm more curious than anything because for all intent and purposes, israel is a social experiment and nothing has been done like it before on such a scale in such an area....at least not without massive amounts of death on the level of genocide.


"Genocide" from both sides, right?


Only one side.

The attempts at genocide are unique to the Palestinians.

If the Israelis had even the slightest urge to commit genocide on the Palestinians, they already would've. Instead, they voluntarily gave up their own land for a pipe dream.


if the israelis tried to out and out wipe the palestinians off the map, there'd be worldwide uproar. that's why they don't do it in such an obvious way.

but you obviously have no understanding of nuances when it comes to politics or social oppression so i won't waste an effort here. you've got your views and nothing will ever change that even if you had witnessed something as graphic like the execution of nguyen van lem.



techstepgenr8tion
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04 Jun 2008, 8:42 pm

A majority of those of Jewish decent in our country vote democrat. I think he was trying to shore up his base as well as do his best with words to try and sweep the critics of his policy on Ahmadinejad talks under the rug. I'm sure the Knesset's taking these claims with a HUGE grain of salt.



skafather84
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04 Jun 2008, 8:50 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
A majority of those of Jewish decent in our country vote democrat. I think he was trying to shore up his base as well as do his best with words to try and sweep the critics of his policy on Ahmadinejad talks under the rug. I'm sure the Knesset's taking these claims with a HUGE grain of salt.



aipac is pretty serious stuff.


and it doesn't matter anyways, israel has enough of their citizens in position of power within various parts of the government that they can still manipulate how they need to.



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04 Jun 2008, 9:03 pm

The title of this thread if misleading. Obama did not say support for Israel is sacrosanct, he said Israel's security is sacrosanct.