Page 1 of 1 [ 15 posts ] 


Which do you support?
Morning after pill 17%  17%  [ 3 ]
Abortion 6%  6%  [ 1 ]
Both 72%  72%  [ 13 ]
Neither 6%  6%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 18

Magneto
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Jun 2009
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,086
Location: Blighty

20 Oct 2013, 2:14 pm

I'm wondering, is there anyone else here who opposes abortion, but supports the use of the morning after pill?

My reasoning is that, until the embryo reaches the primitive streak stage, 10-14 days after conception, it is not a unique human being, but a ball of undifferentiated cells which could give rise to 0, 1, 2 or more human individuals. There is nothing about it to suggest it should be accorded the status of a human being, instead being similar to many, many cells found all over the human body - if we are to accord personhood to the early embryo, why not to those cells?

On the other hand, I use inductive reasoning, working backwards from birth, to search for a point at which it may be morally acceptable to terminate the fetus. The only such points I've found are ones where there is a significant change in the development, so the induction breaks down. The primitive streak is one such point, and there are possibly others, but I'm sticking with the primitive streak for now. Got to be on the safe side.

So whilst it may annoy the Catholics and many Protestants, I'm going to advocate for the morning after pill. Yes, I know it's not 100% effective. But abortion seems to be pretty effective at stopping pregnancy, so maybe by applying stuff from that some safe means could be devised by which a woman who has had sexual intercourse could prevent herself from becoming pregnant in the first week.

Or maybe we can figure some safe any easy means that has very few if any side effects that allow people to reversibly render themselves sterile, and then people can have it as standard. That whooshing noise you hear is the birthrate.



Jacoby
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,284
Location: Arizona

20 Oct 2013, 3:51 pm

I have no issues with the morning after pill or contraceptives in general.



zacb
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 May 2012
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,194

20 Oct 2013, 10:42 pm

I have come to this conclusion as well. If my memory of science serves me correct, after the zygote stages, a human starts to form. So for me, I would agree with you. That is when a piece of tissue turns from tissue that would be flushed down, to something more than that, something that is animated. So yes, support that. I also support any medication based on a right to ingest into your body what you so please. So if you want to drink draino, be my guest, although it is stupid. So if there are medicines after zygote stage, yes, but a abortion, no. But overall, I think we should try to advance technology to the point where we need no worry about it, and we could actually put a partially developed child in an incubator like device, and grow the child outside the womb. This would solve both sides the issues, and a human life could come into the world with minimum fuss. We should focus on tech to solve these issues.



91
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Oct 2010
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,063
Location: Australia

20 Oct 2013, 11:26 pm

Whatever your view on the matter is, the taxpayer should not be the one getting the bill.


_________________
Life is real ! Life is earnest!
And the grave is not its goal ;
Dust thou art, to dust returnest,
Was not spoken of the soul.


zacb
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 May 2012
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,194

20 Oct 2013, 11:38 pm

91 wrote:
Whatever your view on the matter is, the taxpayer should not be the one getting the bill.


True.



The_Walrus
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 27 Jan 2010
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,878
Location: London

21 Oct 2013, 5:04 am

zacb wrote:
I have come to this conclusion as well. If my memory of science serves me correct, after the zygote stages, a human starts to form. So for me, I would agree with you. That is when a piece of tissue turns from tissue that would be flushed down, to something more than that, something that is animated. So yes, support that. I also support any medication based on a right to ingest into your body what you so please. So if you want to drink draino, be my guest, although it is stupid. So if there are medicines after zygote stage, yes, but a abortion, no. But overall, I think we should try to advance technology to the point where we need no worry about it, and we could actually put a partially developed child in an incubator like device, and grow the child outside the womb. This would solve both sides the issues, and a human life could come into the world with minimum fuss. We should focus on tech to solve these issues.

A lot of "abortions" are medication. Are you simply opposed to surgical abortions? That seems like quite an arbitrary distinction.

Movement starts between 7 and 8 weeks. At that stage, a lot of women don't even know they're pregnant. Outlawing abortion at that stage seems unfair, particularly as movement doesn't mean very much- insects move, but it is legal to kill them. An 8 week zef is significantly less aware than an insect or a small bird.

Artificial wombs would still pose issues. Who is going to look after the child once it is "born"?



Magneto
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Jun 2009
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,086
Location: Blighty

21 Oct 2013, 8:43 am

I would think most women know that they've had sex, however. Or that it is likely that they did.

An unconscious person is also less aware than a bird. Your point?



Schneekugel
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jul 2012
Age: 45
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,612

21 Oct 2013, 9:07 am

You know that the morning after pill is simply an contraception, so only preventing an conceivement like pill and condom? (No thats not happening instantly during the sex....thats why the little guys get called "swimmers" in some countries. And if you eat the pill early enough the goal of the little swimmers, simply gets snipped away, while they are still swimming, so no conceivement. Thats as well the cause why it needs to be taken as fast as possible, because the more times passes, the more chance, that a swimmer already reached his goal.)

So yes, you are absolutely right not to compare the morning after pill, condoms, normal pills and UIDs not with abortions.



zacb
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 May 2012
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,194

21 Oct 2013, 11:27 am

The_Walrus wrote:
zacb wrote:
I have come to this conclusion as well. If my memory of science serves me correct, after the zygote stages, a human starts to form. So for me, I would agree with you. That is when a piece of tissue turns from tissue that would be flushed down, to something more than that, something that is animated. So yes, support that. I also support any medication based on a right to ingest into your body what you so please. So if you want to drink draino, be my guest, although it is stupid. So if there are medicines after zygote stage, yes, but a abortion, no. But overall, I think we should try to advance technology to the point where we need no worry about it, and we could actually put a partially developed child in an incubator like device, and grow the child outside the womb. This would solve both sides the issues, and a human life could come into the world with minimum fuss. We should focus on tech to solve these issues.

A lot of "abortions" are medication. Are you simply opposed to surgical abortions? That seems like quite an arbitrary distinction.

Movement starts between 7 and 8 weeks. At that stage, a lot of women don't even know they're pregnant. Outlawing abortion at that stage seems unfair, particularly as movement doesn't mean very much- insects move, but it is legal to kill them. An 8 week zef is significantly less aware than an insect or a small bird.

Artificial wombs would still pose issues. Who is going to look after the child once it is "born"?


This is true. I imagine if we open up the adoption pool to every country, we would be better off. I understood most we surgical. I know it is kinda a weird stance, but let's say a women used some medicine or something , and it kills the baby. Should she be tried for manslaughter? She was in the right to ingest into her body what she so pleases, but the surgical option is deliberate. With the other, it is not always the case. I kinda took my que from Congressman Paul, who is not perfect, but to me, that made sense. I guess we should not ban things because of their affects, but if the only mean for a surgery is the intent of removing the fetus, then I would oppose it. But I oppose restrictions based on the slippery slope argument.



The_Walrus
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 27 Jan 2010
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,878
Location: London

21 Oct 2013, 2:30 pm

Magneto wrote:
I would think most women know that they've had sex, however. Or that it is likely that they did.

An unconscious person is also less aware than a bird. Your point?

Unconscious people have had sentience and regain sentience when they regain consciousness. So your analogy, once again, falls flat.

A better analogy are the skin cells you murder every day.



Magneto
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Jun 2009
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,086
Location: Blighty

21 Oct 2013, 2:59 pm

A fetus will gain consciousness when it is born. Why does previously being conscious give an entity a different moral status? It won't be aware of dying if you kill it in it's sleep...

A fetus is not comparable to skin cells. A very early stage embryo is, yes.



The_Walrus
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 27 Jan 2010
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,878
Location: London

21 Oct 2013, 4:06 pm

Magneto wrote:
A fetus will gain consciousness when it is born. Why does previously being conscious give an entity a different moral status? It won't be aware of dying if you kill it in it's sleep...

Because it has hopes, dreams, ambitions and desires that will now not be filled.

Ask a person if they'd like to be killed next time they go to sleep. They will suggest not.
If you could telepathically ask a foetus if it would prefer not to die, then it wouldn't have a preference because it can't think.

Furthermore, there is the issue of depriving others of their relationships. Killing a person makes the lives of everyone who knew them worse, and brings immense suffering and grief. Killing a zef does not, as it cannot form relationships. The mother has the most opportunity to become attached to it, and people close to her may have as well (which is why killing a zef without the mother's consent is wrong), but if the mother doesn't want it then her concerns trump those of anyone else- it is her body after all.



Magneto
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Jun 2009
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,086
Location: Blighty

21 Oct 2013, 5:20 pm

So human beings have worth due to their dreams and relationships?



LKL
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Age: 50
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,402

21 Oct 2013, 5:27 pm

^in part, yes.



thewhitrbbit
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 May 2012
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,124

22 Oct 2013, 10:28 am

I'm checking both but I'm adding a but.

I don't support abortion, but I don't think it should be banned.