Atheists: How do you feel during the Christmas season?

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An assertion with no evidence to back it up.



Irrelevant. The argument is about whether or not Christmas is based on Sol Invictus or other pagan holidays. Not on whether or not the dates were eventually matched together.



I don't think you even know what my argument is.



And confusing cause and effect in various ways. And mistaking correlation for causation.



Exactly. So you are wrong to cling to the Acharyan belief that Jesus was ever considered a sun god. Or have you changed your belief about this since the last time we had this "debate"?



Your evidence?

It must be tragic to require evidence of the solstice and the fact it take several days to observe its passing. Have you ever considered going out to a stone circle and measuring the point on the horizon where the sun rises and sets around this time?

The Romans decided to take on Christianity as their belief system and simply placed Christmas day onto their Sol Invictus festival which was to celebrate the rebirth of the sun. This fact demonstrates that:

1)They didn't know when Jesus was supposed to have been born, or if he even existed

2)Those responsible for forcing the worship of Christ on Europe (and in doing so much of the western world since) thought the story of Jesus and the notion of the unconquered sun were so similar they may as well be considered the same thing.

By the way Acharyan was not the first to consider Jesus as a sun god. The idea that he was goes back to at least the 19th century. And just because Christians don't consider him a sun god (lets face it they wouldn't) doesn't mean nobody else does.

Yeah MCalavera - What exactly is your argument? All I see is objections and requests for evidence which you shouldn't need. You are coming across as a programmed response. Are you a piece of argumentative software?

^^^^^^^ This. End of thread.

I believe the answer, based on this thread, is... Argumentative

You're dodging. Solstice day is not on December 25. You say the ancients didn't realize that. But you didn't post evidence for it yet. So what I want is the evidence. All you need is historical textual evidence supporting your case.

No more appeal to subjective personal observations. Because what you observe and selectively report is not necessarily what the ancients saw.



Which does not necessarily mean that Christmas is based on Sol Invictus.



Irrelevant.



Evidence please.



Acharya wasn't the first but she is today's reason why it persists, and scholars and historians strongly disagree with her especially that she has yet to source the necessary primary sources that back up her silly claims.

There is no evidence for what you're saying.



Ad hominem.

My argument is clear: Christmas is not pagan in origin. It's Christian in origin.

No, it isn't. Persistent ignorance is no excuse to have this thread ended.

It might sound funny, but actual as an atheist, I would like christmas to be less atheistic, and more serious.

In origin it should be about spending the time, with the ones you love, focusing on the ones you appreciated and what good happened to you this year, what feelings you have toward people.

In facts its about sh***y present stress, to get present you dont really have good ideas about, to present them to other people, presenting you with stuff, that they dont have a good idea about. Then whyever, the crhistmas holidays are afterwards the festivity days, which simply totally sucks, because you need to get the presents, you are expected to bake tons of cakes, you must pack everything, you need to care for washing before, because the three christmas days you will be driving across the whole family, so no time for washing, relatives and friends will be visiting you, so you need to clean up the house as welll... people expect you to do some decoration, you dont care about. In the end the weeks before christmas I am often awake until 0:00 in the night, because of the holiday I need to get everything ready in work and need to work longer, and afterwards I need to arrange tons of capitalistic s**t, that I dont care for. -.- And instead of spending my time with the one that I love, my partner, he spends it with his family, I with mine, and the following days, we are driving across the country to visit every relative. Normally until 28th, I am totally fed up, and when everything has ended, and I sit with my partner in peace at home, thats when true christmas starts.

About the 25th, specially for middle european folks and scandinavians, the theoretical retreat of winter is still important. Its not totally celebrated anymore (but there are still regions, where this is done) but around here where darkness is really dominating around that time, it is really something positive to remind yourself, that days are already getting longer, and that the darkness will come to an end again. So at least its normally mentioned in the news everywhere.

And the reasons why the festivity was celebrated anciently some days afterward the sunchange actually occurred, is because of the non existence of technical gear. If it was foggy or snowy all day, you simply couldnt do measures, because the early measurements were depending on the sun. Just as the rebirth of the year was a great festivity that was celebrated with the surrounding people of an village. Neither could they spread that message by phone or facebook, nor could people simply throw everything on the earth the moment they heard of it. Just like it needed time to do preparations for the festivity. "Getting some bread." had in earlier times another mentioning then today. ^^

Free presents.

Plain and simple.

Hmmm, how can I put this. Maybe you need textual historical evidence to believe that the sunrises at different points on the horizon depending on the time of year, but I would guess most people do not.

It is astronomical fact that the sun has an annual cycle and that during the year it rises and sets at different points on the horizon. In the summer, from the northern hemisphere, it will rise towards the north east and set towards the north west. It's arc through the sky during this time is very high and here in England we are blessed with approximately 18 hours of daylight.

In the winter it rises towards the south east and sets towards the south west, its arc through the sky is low and we are restricted to about 8 hours of daylight.

Between these two extremes the sunrise and sunset positions change by a small fraction each day, and the sun will arc at varying heights through the sky. During March and September we have what are called equinoxes, where the sun will rise directly east and set directly west. At this time day and night are roughly equal length (12 hours).

For many centuries we have referred to this phenomena as the seasons. As far as anyone knows this state of affairs has not changed for many thousands of years. So it is reasonable to accept that those living 2000 - 6000 years ago observed these same changes in the suns strength, arc through the sky, and sunrise/sunset positions.

Now, please concentrate on this bit, during a solstice (either summer or winter) the sun reaches its most extreme sunrise and sunset positions and then stops and reverses. So in the winter, for example, the sun rises and sets at its most southerly point on the horizon, stops around the solstice, and then begins to reverse and starts rising and setting a fraction north again. This continues until the summer solstice where the sun will rise at its most northerly point on the horizon, stop for a few days, then begin to rise and set a littler further south...and so on for as long as the Earths axis has tilted in relation to its orbit around the sun.

It is more than reasonable to think the ancients observed this phenomena and celebrated the passing of the solstice (winter especially) as a sign that the sun would return to its vital strength needed to make crops grow and give warmth to humanity and his livestock. Hmmm, Sol Invictus anyone?

It also explains the many stone circles found in Europe which were all built around 3000 - 5000 years ago at a time when humanity was mastering the practice of agriculture (which depends on a proper understanding of the sun's annual cycle).

If you really need textual evidence for this then I suggest you go to your local school or college and ask a geography teacher to point you in the direction of some elementary text books that will explain it.

Christmas, as a word and concept of celebrating the birth of a supposed savoir of humanity called Jesus, is a Christian construct. But the Roman's decided to place it on the same day as an existing festival called Sol Invictus, which celebrated the rebirth of the sun. So the day we celebrate as Christmas has actual pagan roots that mean something more vital and relevant to humanity than a story of a savoir born in a stable.

Which does not necessarily mean that Christmas is based on Sol Invictus.

[quote]

So what exactly is Christmas based on? The birth of a fictitious man, said to be the son of god.

So in reference to the OP, I prefer to think of Sol Invictus, rather than Jesus on the 25th December.

Saturnalia speaks against you. It did not take place on December 25. That's it. You lose the argument.

You're assuming that Sol Invictus existed before Christmas was mainstream on December 25. We don't know exactly yet what came first.

Exactly. If it's all in the Nativity story, there is nothing to borrow from the pagans.

EDIT: Jesus was not likely to have been fictitious, but that's another story.

"The reason for establishing December 25 as Christmas is somewhat obscure,but is usually held that the day was chosen to correspond to pagan festivals that took place around the time of the winter solstice,when the days begin to lengthen,to celebrate the "rebirth of the sun."Northen European tribes celebrated their chief festival of Yule at the winter solstice to commemorate the rebirth of the sun as the giver of light and warmth.The Roman Saturnalia(a festival dedicated to Saturn,the god of agriculture,and to the renewed power of the sun),also took place at this time,and some Christmas customs are thought to be rooted in this ancient pagan celebration.It is held by some scholars that the birth of Christ as "Light of the World"was made anaglogous to the rebirth of the sun in order to make Christianity more meaningful to pagan converts.Many early Christians decried the gaiety and festive spirit introduced into the Christian celebration as a pagan survival,particularly of the Roman Saturnalia."
Maugerite Ickis
The Book of Relgious Holidays and Celebration

Exactly. You should listen to Maugerite right here.