Atheists: How do you feel during the Christmas season?

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Since none of us were alive at that time,we will never know for sure.

So why act as if you do and add stuff that just isn't supported by historical evidence?

Also, we do have historical evidence to help us out, and using the principle of simplicity, it is more rational to believe that Christmas came about because of the Nativity story and not because (for some mysterious twisted reason) of the observation of the sun.

I never even mentioned the nativity,the only point I was making was that the time around Dec 25 was a holiday long before there ever was a Christian walking around.Christians appropriated it.
The only thing Christian about the whole deal is the name.

That's the problem. If the only thing Christian is the name, what about the story of the Nativity upon which it is based?

And isn't communion and sharing joy with each other also a Christian thing as evidenced by the Book of Acts? Why is it exclusively pagan? Why should it not be a matter of common thing for all holidays rather than one side having a monopoly on it?

The story of the nativity seems like another myth to me.Show me proof it happened,from a history book.
I never said that sharing joy was exclusively pagan,but it's not exclusively Christian either.
Maybe I would feel more charitable if the stores didn't already have the Christmas stuff out now,and then the bombardment of corny holiday music,awful holiday specials on TV.
Sometimes the light displays are beautiful.

But that's not what we're arguing about. So why put up a strawman?

The Nativity story (myth or not) is Christian, not pagan. That's the point!



So what did early Christmas borrow from the pagans?

Yule logs,mistletoe,feasting,evergreens,lights.All the good stuff.
Virgin births occur in other myths.

All of which came much later. And even if they were part of early Christmas, that still doesn't mean that Christmas itself is pagan.



In prior myths to the Gospel? Like what? Post references while you're at it.

Ok, maybe not feasting. But as both you and I have agreed, feasting is not exclusively pagan. And it's an expected part of almost any holiday.

Christmas was never really a religious observance for me growing up. It was about spending time with my family and of course presents. I don't care that much about the presents anymore and my family has drifted apart over the years. The holidays can be a rough time for me, I miss my childhood and the people that are no longer with us.

There is nothing mysterious about observing the passing of the solstice. In modern times we have the luxury of knowledge that the seasons will constantly change and summer will follow winter. But ancient people cannot have known this and could only say for sure that summer would return when they observed the passing of the winter solstice, which they could not have done until several days after the actual day of the solstice.

Because the sun brings warmth, light, and makes the crops grow, it would have been much more important to them than a silly story about a child born in a stable, who they had never seen.

I already told you that Saturnalia speaks against your silly ad hoc. Give it up with the unjustified speculating and let's just stick to the evidence and to Occam's razor.

I was not talking about Saturnalia, that is a different celebration from earlier times. I was talking about Sol Invictus, which you keep side stepping because you know "the unconquerable sun" can mean nothing other than the rebirth of the sun after the winter solstice.

And just because you don't understand the need for several days to measure sunrise/sunset positions to observe the passing of the solstice, and seem to need evidence for this, doesn't mean it isn't a fact.

Why do you always have to demonstrate such intellectual dishonesty?

We don't know for a fact that Sol Invictus was before Christmas or the other way around.

And Saturnalia is evidence that the ancients weren't as confused about the solstice as you make them out to be.



I don't care how many times you keep repeating this. Without evidence that shows the ancients were confused on this, and with evidence to the contrary of what you are saying, it means nothing.

You are confused, Saturnalia says nothing about what I am saying. If you want to stick to Occam's razor then try this:

What is more logical:

1 - That ancient people suddenly adopted a holiday on 25th Dec because of some story they were told about a child born in a stable who was said to be their savoir?

or

2 - Ancient people celebrated the 25th Dec because its the first day a noticeable change in the sun's movements herald the return of the warmth necessary to grow their crops. But later they called it Christmas because the Roman authorities told them to after deciding to adopt a new religion called Christianity?

At no point have I said the ancients were confused about it. What I am saying is that you, I, or anyone living today, or two thousand years ago must make several observations of the sunrise/sunset positions on and after the day of the winter solstice in order to be able to say for sure that the solstice has come and gone. I doubt whether the ancients were confused about it, but it was their only way of knowing that summer would return.

You are the only one who is confused.