Shutdown and democracy

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Putting aside the current reason for the shutdown, is anyone actually questioning whether using shutdown tactics is at odd with democratic values, and in fact an inherently undemocratic act, such as a junta/coup, etc?

I have yet to find another federal government where shutdown is even possible. I seem to be a problem by design, which make it all the more stupid.

However I do understand the rationale with agreeing on the national budget. However this is not what is happening, it is really about using a political device, to stifle something that hasn't been successfully defeated democratically, effectually holding the country to ransom.

It seems that in the 80s the longest they would go was half a day. All political system have their constitutional quagmires. So there can be unspoken lines. But perhaps where they can't help themselves, then legislation is necessary.

You might say you don't vote for x, etc but the fact is then, win seats, elections, come up with a better alternative. That is the democratic process. If you think constitutional reform is needed then campaign for it.

Those calling for more direct democracy, even politicians that talk about this are smart enough realize it is a gimmick that won't work, it is impossible to scale, and logistically infeasible, not to mention holding even a single referendum is massively expansive and a form of mob rule.

There isn't a substitute to governance and that isn't what is happening ATM. You might want to change political terms, that is absolutely fine. However you have to consider that any government (including ones you support) need to be effective at governing, and terms should reflect this.

In my opinion it is inherently undemocratic. With many peoples' lives dependent on whether or not they get food stamps, social security, etc, this isn't the political process... it's a hostage situation.

Even from a right of center perspective it undemocratic, you can compare it to politburo tactics.

The tip off that it's undemocratic is that these people mock negotiation. They reject it. They want their demands met and will only discuss what % is to be met. The other side gets nothing. Obama has offered them 10-1 spending cuts to new revenue (in the form of closing tax loopholes) and they would not take it. As Republican Peter King said, a deal like that you take and you run. But if Obama or Democrats get anything they think they lose. These are fanatics.

They are calling the bipartisan negotiation in the Senate "a mushy piece of s***". That's what they think about negotiation.

Of course it is possible--this possibility is an absolutely necessary feature of responsible government.

Parliament (or in your case Congress) holds the purse strings. The Crown (or in your case the Executive Branch) may not impose a tax, or appropriate money from the Treasury without the permission of Parliament.

The separation of the power of appropriation from spending power is the most fundamental of checks on a government. The English fought a long and bloody civil war on precisely this point in the 17th century.



I hold out hope that conduct in this case has been so egregious that it cannot help but resonate with voters in 2014. The Republican primaries will be a bloodbath, and it may be that gerrymandering will not serve to protect as many of them as they hope. If Republican voters sit on their hands in disgust, that may well be enough to turn the results in enough districts.

Whether that is any better for the nation's fiscal policy remains to be seen.

>Of course it is possible--this possibility is an absolutely necessary feature of responsible government.

Parliaments are different, so you get effects like a new elections, or the two chamber mightn't have different majorities.

I'm talking specifically about federal shutdown, not the principle you talk of. Any examples of this you can cite?

IMO there needs to be something in the constitution that protects the people from this abuse of government and it is an abuse. It's a blatant abuse of power. Government does not "shut down." I have never seen anything in my life as stupid as this. Seriously. It's just abuse of power is all it is and that's what each side accuses the other of doing.

This is a failure on the part of the administration for a)passing the monstrosity that is Obamacare and b)not passing a budget since 2009 and before you say Republicans! Know this, the Democrats controlled the White House, the Senate, and the House in 2010 and didn't pass a budget. They had complete control of government. The same way you still got the evil corporatist Obamacare which passed completely down partisan lines. Obama is bought and paid for and he serves his master's well.

The GOP controls the House, they control the purse strings. The Democrats declaring that they will not negotiate or compromise is undemocratic. Obama is not a king or dictator no matter how much some of you guys wish he was. Obama is a liar and is orchestrating this so called shutdown. They're the ones repeating the lies about the US being at any danger of default, they're spending money barricading monuments for the purpose of what? They're doing everything in their power to scare the American people.

Blah blah blah. Republicans just got their asses kicked up and down the road listening to angry irrationals like you. Keep up the good work.

Shut down isn't how you argue on a specific bill or issue. If it is passed you have to try an repeal it.

I wanted this thread not to be about Obamacare , but the concept of using this shutdown tactic.

The Affordable Health Care Act or any legislation is not a valid excuse for this. It's time to amend the constitution so this never happens again.

The shutdown happened because our government has been funded by Continuing Resolutions since 2009 because Barack Obama and congressional Democrats have been unwilling or unable to pass a budget since then, the last CR ended at the end of the current fiscal year on October 1st. Funding for Obamacare started at the start of this fiscal year.

The GOP won control of the House in 2010, the president and congressional Democrats can't ignore that. That Democratic majority in the House was suppose to last a generation and it was wiped away because the American people rejected Obamacare. Elections DO have consequences, you cannot declare that you will not negotiate or compromise and still accuse the other side of being undemocratic. The law has already been changed unilaterally by the Obama adminstration, they've given waivers to their corporate masters and campaign financiers. They've done everything to protect themselves from the law they've made.

Is there any bigger liar that Obama? He voted against raising the debt ceiling calling it a 'failure of leadership to do so', he railed on the constitutional abuses of Bush, he even hammered Hiliary's insurance mandate during their primary debates. How can anybody that liked Obama the candidate like Obama the president?

Amend the constitution so it says what? That sounds like you want to do something but I'm not sure you know what.

Isn't it some kind of Fillabuster thing Cruz did? Obviously I am no expert but I am sure someone somewhere can think of something to add.

Ted Cruz's filibuster which wasn't actually a real filibuster(it did not block senate procedure, he just talked a long time) had zero bearing on the shutdown besides maybe inspiring some members of the House. The shutdown happened because the government has been funded by Continuing Resolutions since 2009 and this last CR ended on October 1st, Obamacare funding started at the begining of the 2014 fiscal year which is October 1st. Barack Obama and the Democrat controlled Senate have not been able to an agreement with the GOP controlled House over a new CR, thus the so called government shutdown of non-essential services and personal. The House passed a CR that defunded Obamacare and Harry Reid stripped that provision out of senate bill sending it back to the House. The House has since passed numerous piecemeal bills to reopen parts of government that have been shut down(such as the national parks/monuments, the NIH, paying backpay to federal employees, etc) Obama and Democrats in the House and Senate are against the piecemeal approach and have voted against measures to reopen government and demand complete capitulation by the GOP because they've made the political judgement that the American public will not blame them for their unwillingness to compromise or negotiate. You can thank the MSM for the assist.

What are you talking about? The reason we don't have official budgets is that the House and Senate are too far apart to agree on anything. The White House submits a budget proposal every year. The Senate passed one this year. The Republican House passes their far right wish-list budget every year. These are statements, not real budgets that will be enacted. We will still likely have a continuing resolution in place of a budget for the same reasons as before and the CR authorizes every penny that we spend.

You need to question your track record on these predictions you make. Garbage in, garbage out.