South Koreans defecting... ...TO North Korea

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AceOfSpades
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29 Oct 2013, 5:18 pm

RushKing wrote:

AceOfSpades wrote:

RushKing wrote:

AceOfSpades wrote:

RushKing wrote:

AceOfSpades wrote:

RushKing wrote:

AceOfSpades wrote:

I guess suffering is ok as long as it's under a left wing regime.

Nice joke, North Korea is like runned like a corporation town.

And to a far right winger, Nazi Germany was socialist since the Government intervened to control the economy and the people. It must be real convenient to project all extremism on the other side of the spectrum. Scotland must have an illegal immigration epidemic going on with all these so-called Scotsmen who hate haggis.

People in the left are in favor of equality and North Korea is a very unequal society. Vladimir Lenin's philosophy (Which North Korea is based on) is anti leftist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-Wing ... e_Disorder

Seriously, you're no different than the far right wingers who project extremism on the left wing. Anyone can come up with some broad arbitrary horses**t ways to define "left wing" and "right wing" conveniently to their liking.

It's not arbitrary, you called North Korea left wing and you gave no reason why you believe so. People in the left are in favor of more social and economic equality. Are you going to dismiss this fact?

Weak. Pretty much all your arguments have a flip side that a far right winger could just as easily justify labeling fascist regimes left wing under the same logic. Fascism has big Government, a planned economy, and opposition to class conflict. If I defined "left wing" as broadly and arbitrarily as you did, then I can just as easily call Nazi Germany fascist.

Nazi Germany was fascist, and North Korea is also. 'Big' government is a bad description of the left because many in the left don't want any government.

So now all the sudden it isn't real socialism if the means of production is controlled by the Government. I'm done with going back and forth, look socialism up in the f*****g dictionary for Christ's sake. I'll give you a hint, you won't find "unplanned economy" as a defining feature since branches of socialism encompass either a planned or unplanned economy. Whether the means of production are owned cooperatively or by the public sector means jack s**t since both are meant to be ideal for serving the community as a whole.

RushKing
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29 Oct 2013, 5:21 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:

RushKing wrote:

AceOfSpades wrote:

Nazi Germany was fascist, and North Korea is also. 'Big' government is a bad description of the left because many in the left don't want any government.

So now all the sudden it isn't real socialism if the means of production is controlled by the Government. I'm done with going back and forth, look socialism up in the f***ing dictionary for Christ's sake. I'll give you a hint, you won't find "unplanned economy" as a defining feature since branches of socialism encompass either a planned or unplanned economy.

This isn't an argument about the word socialism, it is about what the primary goal everyone in the left shares.

Jacoby
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29 Oct 2013, 5:35 pm

The left doesn't want big government, it wants no government... Could of fooled me.

RushKing
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29 Oct 2013, 5:37 pm

Jacoby wrote:

The left doesn't want big government, it wants no government... Could of fooled me.

All I said was many in the left want no government, and that people in the left are favor of more social and economic equality. Please read carefully.

AceOfSpades
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29 Oct 2013, 5:45 pm

Jacoby wrote:

The left doesn't want big government, it wants no government... Could of fooled me.

Lmao the definition of left wing has taken a turn for the worse. First it's defined as being in favour of equality, and now all the sudden it's defined as anarchism. And no, I'm not going back and forth again. I'm just making a comment.

Jacoby
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29 Oct 2013, 5:51 pm

RushKing wrote:

Jacoby wrote:

The left doesn't want big government, it wants no government... Could of fooled me.

All I said was many in the left want no government, and that people in the left are favor of more social and economic equality. Please read carefully.

Social and economic equality enforced out the barrel of the gun and the state has a monopoly on violence.The communist regimes of the last century are that theory put into action, it does not work and it resulted in the murder of millions.

RushKing
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29 Oct 2013, 5:58 pm

Jacoby wrote:

RushKing wrote:

Jacoby wrote:

The left doesn't want big government, it wants no government... Could of fooled me.

All I said was many in the left want no government, and that people in the left are favor of more social and economic equality. Please read carefully.

I totally agree with you about what authoritarian Marxists call "dictatorship of the proletariat". It just replaces capitalist class with a coordinator class.

Last edited by RushKing on 30 Oct 2013, 1:11 am, edited 3 times in total.

Tequila
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29 Oct 2013, 6:11 pm

91 wrote:

I had the displeasure to meet Alejandro cao de Benos at Kumsusan Palace, the man was total scum. Unfortunately there are far worse out there than internet contrarians.

I'm sure for some here Alex is living the dream.

91 wrote:

There are those restaurants. You go to them a lot and then everyone pretends not to notice when the power goes out.

The person that went on the tour said that that was almost a running joke, but that he also realised that by being in such a restaurant he felt incredibly guilty for obvious reasons.

91 wrote:

It certainly does, the place is very ugly and makes liberal use of concrete.

The city looks so grey and quiet.

And the roads! There are roads, but nearly no vehicles on them!

91 wrote:

That being said, the People's Study House looks quite nice when viewed from the fountain park (it looks appalling from Kim Il Sung square and is pretty rubbish on the inside). The Ryugyong Hotel also looks quite attractive, it would fit nicely anywhere else. But the interior is not finished and it is too big and opulent for the city, also its dimensions are the same as Orwell's Ministry of Truth (they don't like it when you mention that).

I think I might have seen that, not sure.

91 wrote:

They have pictures of the leaders in their houses and music is played through speakers in the cities. They play it on Air Koryo as well. But propaganda pretty much equals any music there. The Moranbong band is played everywhere, its their answer to K-Pop, they are the only women allowed to wear miniskirts. The only time I heard western music was when they played Yellow Submarine for me at the Study House after I gave a short introduction to my university, what I research and what I was doing there.

I'm sure the North Koreans would love to hear K-Pop on a regular basis.

I suppose that after such a length of time, even though the two Koreas have the same language, that definitions and the way that they use the language has changed so much that they find it difficult to really communicate ideas.

91 wrote:

Most of the tourists are either sympathisers or adventure oriented, either way I don't think they leave a good impression.

I don't think the guy who went was a sympathiser.

91 wrote:

The South has a that can grate westerners but it is pretty spectacular. After about the first week there I would wake up and realise I was still inside the country and then I would wish I was somewhere else. I get the feeling that I was not the only one in the country doing that. It felt really weird crossing into China and feeling free. My first time out, I went to Shenyang and went straight to Pizza Hut.

I'm not surprised.

91
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29 Oct 2013, 6:56 pm

@Rushking

They have collectivised farms in NK mate... just saying.

Tequila wrote:

Did you know that much of the equipment used to make Taedoggang beer actually comes from Burton on Trent, UK?

No but it does not surprise me, they have US made bowling balls in their alley and the theme park is made of gear from Italy.

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Fnord
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29 Oct 2013, 7:28 pm

Left, right, whatever...

The point is, those six idiots broke into what essentially amounts to a nation-wide concentration camp because they thought they could find work.

It's like having a minyan of schlemiels break into Treblinka looking for medical care ...

:wink: GODWIN!

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AspieOtaku
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30 Oct 2013, 1:41 am

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwwyzpEnK0M[/youtube][youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euNK6h95pGg[/youtube]

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AspieOtaku
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30 Oct 2013, 1:43 am

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cw9OofrXwHY[/youtube]Ohhh isnt life in North Korea great? *sarcasm* You have no freedom there no free will or independant thoughts. Your forced to live in the dark ages. Not my kind of life.

AspieOtaku
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30 Oct 2013, 1:47 am

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wM1sKwW_Ogk[/youtube]

WorldsEdge
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30 Oct 2013, 3:29 am

91 wrote:

Propaganda is not really pumped into people's houses as they don't really have power. I never met a true believer in the country, mostly just career people, people who were just trying to get along and the terrified.

Do they still push stuff like this? (wikipedia link)

Quote:

However, Kim Jong-il's official biography states he was born in a secret military camp on Baekdu Mountain (Korean: 백두산밀영고향집) in Japanese-occupied Korea on 16 February 1942.[12] Official biographers claim that his birth at Baekdu Mountain was foretold by a swallow, and heralded by the appearance of a double rainbow across the sky over the mountain and a new star in the heavens.[13]

Kim Jong Il... the original "Brony?" :roll:

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91
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30 Oct 2013, 4:45 am

WorldsEdge wrote:

91 wrote:

Do they still push stuff like this? (wikipedia link)

Umm. The people I met seemed quite embarrassed by this sort of stuff. That said, the new one they liked to mention was how much Kim Jong Un looks like his grandfather (although the rumour is that he has had substantial plastic surgery to accomplish this). The latest propaganda is of old soldiers crying when he arrived to visit. There is a big move on to develop a cult of personality around him as the rightful successor of Kim Il Sung as a result there are many more pictures of KIS as a younger man plastered everywhere.

The really interesting propaganda shift has been about Kim Jong Il. When I was there I had the chance to pay a visit to their film studio just outside of Pyongyang. They had just finished making a movie about 'the General' (KJI). Lots of the stories about KIS relate to him stopping to help old ladies with their bags and being a grandfather figure. KJI used to be portrayed as far too busy to deal with all that (mostly because he hated talking in public). But now they have just finished working on some stuff to soften his image a bit now that he is dead. The latest film is about a worker who goes home to take care of his wife and while he is gone, the General visits and so he misses out on getting his photo taken with him. Naturally when the General hears about this he invites the man to Pyongyang (which is a big deal because you need permission and every one of my guides in the countryside talked of how they were hoping to live there), during his time there with his wife they stay at the Koryo Hotel and are treated very well and are naturally very grateful and the man gets his photo with the General.

The only new secular miracle they talk about is the resemblance but the citizens I met, are VERY naturalistic in their world views don't really buy into the miracle stuff and seemed to scoff at it. The propaganda is focused on enduring the arduous march (their ridiculous term for the famine) and geared towards creating a father figure out of KJI, rather than the massive image terror he reprinted during his lifetime

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Last edited by 91 on 30 Oct 2013, 4:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

WorldsEdge
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30 Oct 2013, 4:56 am

91 wrote:

WorldsEdge wrote:

91 wrote:

Do they still push stuff like this? (wikipedia link)

Umm. The people I met seemed quite embarrassed by this sort of stuff.

That I can see. I was just wondering if the media in NK still flogs this kind of thing. After all, the rainbows and pink unicorns are from his state sponsored biography. (Okay, not the unicorns, but they'd fit in nicely, I think.)

Quote:

The latest film is about a worker who goes home to take care of his wife and while he is gone, the General visits and so he misses out on getting his photo taken with him. Naturally when the General hears about this he invites the man to Pyongyang (which is a big deal because you need permission), during his time there with his wife they stay at the Koryo Hotel and are treated very well and are naturally very grateful and the man gets his photo with the General.

I think I'll wait for the DVD to come out, personally. Wish you hadn't spoiled the ending for me, though. :wink:

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