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American
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01 Jan 2014, 12:50 am

Article III Section 2 of the U.S. Constitution says that "[t]he Trial of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment, shall be by Jury" and the Sixth Amendment says that "[i]n all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed." The Sixth Amendment right to a jury trial applies to the states through the Fourteenth Amendment. Yet, The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that a criminal defendant does not have a constitutional right to a jury trial for "petty offenses" that could only subject the defendant to a prison sentence of less than six months. I have read the rationale for this but I disagree. The Sixth Amendment gives a defendant the right to a jury trial in all criminal prosecutions, period. What part of "all" is not clear here? What are your thoughts?



Kraichgauer
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01 Jan 2014, 1:14 am

I think the Supreme Court is full of crap.


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American
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01 Jan 2014, 2:27 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
I think the Supreme Court is full of crap.


I think that sometimes the Supreme Court just makes stuff up as they go along.



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01 Jan 2014, 2:33 am

American wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
I think the Supreme Court is full of crap.


I think that sometimes the Supreme Court just makes stuff up as they go along.


Could be.


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01 Jan 2014, 3:21 am

Another issue is that, contra the explicit statements of the founders, judges and attorneys are now instructing juries that they have to rule based only on whether the defendant broke extant law.
If the founders had wanted expert opinions on whether laws had been broken, they would have specified a jury of lawyers or a panel of judges, experts on law, not a 'jury of the defendant's peers.'



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01 Jan 2014, 4:22 am

This is small potatoes, the real crime is prosecutors overcharging people in order to force them to take plea bargains, one of the largest perversions of justice currently extant.


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Kraichgauer
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01 Jan 2014, 4:33 am

Dox47 wrote:
This is small potatoes, the real crime is prosecutors overcharging people in order to force them to take plea bargains, one of the largest perversions of justice currently extant.


Sometimes it fails, and the defendant walks because the jury realizes how draconian the charges are.


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01 Jan 2014, 5:00 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
This is small potatoes, the real crime is prosecutors overcharging people in order to force them to take plea bargains, one of the largest perversions of justice currently extant.


Sometimes it fails, and the defendant walks because the jury realizes how draconian the charges are.


This is from a Canadian context, but I know someone who's attended law school. They tell me that prosecutors and judges really don't want juries to be aware of jury nullification (going so far as to say that, if they ever wanted to get out of jury duty, they'd just tell the selectors they know about it).


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01 Jan 2014, 12:23 pm

California Court Rules Against Jury Nullification

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July 7, 2008 -- The question of jury nullification was taken up recently by the California Supreme Court, which ruled that judges can remove jurors who declare their conscience above the law.

Under California law, a trial court's authority to discharge a juror is granted by the state penal code, which stipulates that if a juror refuses to follow the court's instructions, he is unable to perform his duty, and the court may order him to be discharged and draw the name of an alternate.

Essentially, Jury Nullification is what happens when a jury reaches a decision and declares, "We the jury find that the law invoked against the accused is itself unlawful and inapplicable to the case at hand."

The (American) jury draws its power of nullification from its right to render a general verdict in criminal trials, the inability of criminal courts to direct a verdict no matter how strong the evidence, the Fifth Amendment’s Double Jeopardy Clause, which prohibits the appeal of an acquittal, and the fact that jurors can never be punished for the verdict they return.

Most Americans don't know about Jury Nullification, and will be dismissed from the jury pool if they do express their knowledge.

I'll never pass the jury screening process again ... :wink:



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01 Jan 2014, 1:34 pm

I was on a jury last summer ( worst experience of my life). Most likely I was selected because I avoided eye contact and kept looking at the ground because I couldn't handle being so close to other people. Huge mistake for the lousy excuse for a swine prosecution and defense. Both lawyers wanted the guy to walk and intentionally skimmed past key pieces of evidence. As it turned out I was the only one on the jury to pay attention to the small details. You wouldn't believe how pi$$ed the prosecution and defense looked when the panel returned its verdict. I did discuss with a fellow jury member that we have the right to nullification which surprised him. Everyone seems to think that the Supreme Court has the final say when in reality a jury panel can overrule their verdict and let the defendant walk. I agree that a defendant should be allowed to have a jury trial even for minor offence if it is requested. However, I think jury service should be optional since the current practice conflicts with the 13th amendment. Also, a jury should be informed of nullification and that they cannot convict when there is doubt.


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03 Jan 2014, 12:08 pm

Fnord wrote:
California Court Rules Against Jury Nullification

Quote:
July 7, 2008 -- The question of jury nullification was taken up recently by the California Supreme Court, which ruled that judges can remove jurors who declare their conscience above the law.

Under California law, a trial court's authority to discharge a juror is granted by the state penal code, which stipulates that if a juror refuses to follow the court's instructions, he is unable to perform his duty, and the court may order him to be discharged and draw the name of an alternate.

Essentially, Jury Nullification is what happens when a jury reaches a decision and declares, "We the jury find that the law invoked against the accused is itself unlawful and inapplicable to the case at hand."

The (American) jury draws its power of nullification from its right to render a general verdict in criminal trials, the inability of criminal courts to direct a verdict no matter how strong the evidence, the Fifth Amendment’s Double Jeopardy Clause, which prohibits the appeal of an acquittal, and the fact that jurors can never be punished for the verdict they return.

Most Americans don't know about Jury Nullification, and will be dismissed from the jury pool if they do express their knowledge.

I'll never pass the jury screening process again ... :wink:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kp-5rvtSpak[/youtube]



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03 Jan 2014, 12:15 pm

Pain in the ass that it may be at times, I still believe in trial by jury.


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03 Jan 2014, 12:47 pm

They don't empanel a jury for misdemeanors. You get a bench trial then, which is a trial by judge. You can also request a bench trial for felonies if you want, and that's good to do if your defense is only based on technicalities that the judge would rule by, but not the jury.


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03 Jan 2014, 1:43 pm

Dox47 wrote:
This is small potatoes, the real crime is prosecutors overcharging people in order to force them to take plea bargains, one of the largest perversions of justice currently extant.


^this.

And that someone who refuses a plea bargain has very little chance for aquittal, no matter what evidence there is or isn't, especially when it comes to non-violent drug offenders.


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04 Jan 2014, 12:05 pm

American wrote:
Article III Section 2 of the U.S. Constitution says that "[t]he Trial of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment, shall be by Jury" and the Sixth Amendment says that "[i]n all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed." The Sixth Amendment right to a jury trial applies to the states through the Fourteenth Amendment. Yet, The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that a criminal defendant does not have a constitutional right to a jury trial for "petty offenses" that could only subject the defendant to a prison sentence of less than six months. I have read the rationale for this but I disagree. The Sixth Amendment gives a defendant the right to a jury trial in all criminal prosecutions, period. What part of "all" is not clear here? What are your thoughts?


Bordenkircher v Hayes 1978 took care of the Sixth Amendment.