Page 1 of 5 [ 69 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

snake321
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,135

15 Feb 2007, 2:19 pm

Why do hard-line conservatives have this attitude that euthanasia is "immoral"? I'm sorry but immoral is taking that right away from them. Most euthanasia patients are elderly people who have a VERY slim chance of living anyways, and even if they did, what else is left in their life to motivate them when theyr 80 yrs old? Forcing someone to go through torturous means such as having feeding tubes shoved through their navels, death is clearly their better alternative. I know if I were in that situation I'd want someone to pull the plug on me.



ahayes
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Dec 2006
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,506

15 Feb 2007, 2:32 pm

I would want to be able to kill myself if I was terminally ill and in a lot of pain, but if I were in a coma or somethign I definately wouldn't want my plug pulled.



Revenant
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Nov 2006
Gender: Male
Posts: 560

15 Feb 2007, 2:35 pm

If someone killed me randomly one day it'd be an act of euthanasia.



jimservo
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jun 2006
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,964
Location: Philadelphia Suburbs

15 Feb 2007, 3:09 pm

snake321 wrote:
Most euthanasia patients are elderly people who have a VERY slim chance of living anyways, and even if they did, what else is left in their life to motivate them when theyr 80 yrs old? Forcing someone to go through torturous means such as having feeding tubes shoved through their navels, death is clearly their better alternative. I know if I were in that situation I'd want someone to pull the plug on me.


Euthanasia is being proposed not just for the elderly. In places Switzerland it recently was declared a right for those simply with mental disabilities. In Holland doctors euthanize infants, often without parental permission.

Suicide advocates are now declaring that in essence, certain stages of life, and indeed certain type of people are living lives that are not even worth living. This is dangerous. "Doctor's rights" groups in places like Britain are claiming that doctors should have the right not to treat a patient if they feel it is not worth it due to their own ethics. This has led to battles in the courts between parents of children and doctors and patients and doctors in both the UK and the United States.



jimservo
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jun 2006
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,964
Location: Philadelphia Suburbs

15 Feb 2007, 3:14 pm

The slippery slope of legalizing assisted suicide, from Holland. Things have gotten worse since:

Quote:
The commission’s two-volume report, known as the Remmelink Report, was issued in 1991.<10 The Remmelink Report included complete statistical data upon which it based its conclusions. Independent analysis of this rich source of information had a profoundly negative impact on the world’s view of Dutch euthanasia. According to the Remmelink Report, about 130,000 people die each year in the Netherlands. Of these, approximately 43,300, or about one third, die suddenly—from catastrophic heart attacks, stroke, accidents, etc.—thus precluding medical decision making about end-of-life care. That leaves approximately 90,000 people whose deaths involve end-of-life medical decision making each year.

With that in mind, here are the figures about euthanasia-related deaths in 1990, derived from the Remmelink Report’s published statistical data:

* 2,300 patients were euthanized (killed) by their doctors upon request, and 400 people died through physician-assisted suicide, for a total of 2,700 doctor-induced deaths. That is approximately 3 percent of all deaths involving end-of-life medical care. The equivalent percentage in the United States would be approximately 41,500 deaths.
* 1,040 died from involuntary euthanasia, lethal injections given without request or consent—three deaths every single day. These deaths constitute slightly more than 1 percent of all cases involving end-of-life medical care. (The same percentage in the United States would be approximately 16,000 involuntary killings per year.) Of these involuntary euthanasia cases, 14 percent, or 145, were fully competent to make their own medical decisions but were killed without their request or consent anyway. (The same percentage in the United States would be more than 2,000 who would be killed.) Moreover, 72 percent of the people killed without their consent had never given any indication they would want their lives terminated.
* 8,100 patients died from an intentional overdose of morphine or other pain-control medications, designed primarily to terminate life. In other words, death was not a side effect of treatment to relieve pain, which can sometimes occur, but was the intended result of the overdose. Of these, 61 percent (4,941 patients) were intentionally overdosed without request or consent. The equivalent percentage in the United States would be approximately 78,000.

These figures are startling. Of the approximately 90,000 Dutch people whose deaths involved end-of-life medical decision-making in 1990, 11,140 were intentionally killed (euthanized) or assisted in suicide—or 11.1 percent of all Dutch deaths involving medical decision-making! This is approximately 8.5 percent of Dutch deaths from all causes. Of these killings, more than half were involuntary (1,040 involuntary lethal injections and 4,941 involuntary intentional overdoses). Applying those percentages to the U.S. death rate would mean more than 170,000 deaths each year caused by euthanasia or assisted suicide, and about 85,000 of these involuntary, more than the current number of U.S. suicides and homicides combined.


(source link)



jimservo
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jun 2006
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,964
Location: Philadelphia Suburbs

15 Feb 2007, 3:18 pm

The Swiss case:

Quote:
The Swiss Supreme Court has ruled that people with mental illnesses can be legally assisted in suicide. The case came about when a member of Dignitas, an organization that, for a fee, provides a safe house for, and assistance with, suicide, brought a lawsuit seeking the right to have his death facilitated. The man does not have cancer, AIDS, or another physical illness, as that term is popularly understood. Rather, he is depressed from bipolar disease. But this does not mean that he does not have a right to die. According to the International Herald Tribune, the Swiss high court ruled, “It must be recognized that an incurable, permanent, serious mental disorder can cause similar suffering as a physical (disorder), making life appear unbearable to the patient in the long term.”


(source link)



Pug
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 5 Sep 2006
Gender: Male
Posts: 332
Location: Stardusk

15 Feb 2007, 3:21 pm

jimservo wrote:
In Holland doctors euthanize infants, often without parental permission.

HAHA I'm sorry but you Americans are so dumb and naive. Do you truly believe what those stupid Republicans and christianfundamentalists say? You know, I actually live in Holland and I can say that's NOT true.
My God, you know that we dutch can laugh days about the stupidity of americans? For reasons like this, because all americans seem to believe what the american media say about holland.
America media=as bad as media in dictatorial countries (and that's a fact), please don't ever believe anything they say abou holland anymore.

Killing children without parental permission :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:



snake321
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,135

15 Feb 2007, 3:28 pm

Euthanasia aside, I don't think it's right to condemn people for making a decision of free will. Our culture seems to demonize suicide, but if someone has a permanent problem that they can't do anything about, then suicide should be their right. One shouldn't be forced to live a miserable life just to make other people happy, what will happen is sooner or later that person will snap and quite possibly kill people who don't wish to die.
Like I said, suicide is a right, it's about self control and free will. Nobody knows what that person feels like except that person. Just as nobody has a right to take an innocent life against their will, one should have no right to make people live against their will either. A life is the express property of the individual who owns it. Take it from someone who has lived over 8 yrs riding the fence.



Pug
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 5 Sep 2006
Gender: Male
Posts: 332
Location: Stardusk

15 Feb 2007, 3:31 pm

jimservo wrote:
The slippery slope of legalizing assisted suicide, from Holland. Things have gotten worse since:

Quote:
The commission’s two-volume report, known as the Remmelink Report, was issued in 1991.<10 The Remmelink Report included complete statistical data upon which it based its conclusions. Independent analysis of this rich source of information had a profoundly negative impact on the world’s view of Dutch euthanasia. According to the Remmelink Report, about 130,000 people die each year in the Netherlands. Of these, approximately 43,300, or about one third, die suddenly—from catastrophic heart attacks, stroke, accidents, etc.—thus precluding medical decision making about end-of-life care. That leaves approximately 90,000 people whose deaths involve end-of-life medical decision making each year.

With that in mind, here are the figures about euthanasia-related deaths in 1990, derived from the Remmelink Report’s published statistical data:

* 2,300 patients were euthanized (killed) by their doctors upon request, and 400 people died through physician-assisted suicide, for a total of 2,700 doctor-induced deaths. That is approximately 3 percent of all deaths involving end-of-life medical care. The equivalent percentage in the United States would be approximately 41,500 deaths.
* 1,040 died from involuntary euthanasia, lethal injections given without request or consent—three deaths every single day. These deaths constitute slightly more than 1 percent of all cases involving end-of-life medical care. (The same percentage in the United States would be approximately 16,000 involuntary killings per year.) Of these involuntary euthanasia cases, 14 percent, or 145, were fully competent to make their own medical decisions but were killed without their request or consent anyway. (The same percentage in the United States would be more than 2,000 who would be killed.) Moreover, 72 percent of the people killed without their consent had never given any indication they would want their lives terminated.
* 8,100 patients died from an intentional overdose of morphine or other pain-control medications, designed primarily to terminate life. In other words, death was not a side effect of treatment to relieve pain, which can sometimes occur, but was the intended result of the overdose. Of these, 61 percent (4,941 patients) were intentionally overdosed without request or consent. The equivalent percentage in the United States would be approximately 78,000.

These figures are startling. Of the approximately 90,000 Dutch people whose deaths involved end-of-life medical decision-making in 1990, 11,140 were intentionally killed (euthanized) or assisted in suicide—or 11.1 percent of all Dutch deaths involving medical decision-making! This is approximately 8.5 percent of Dutch deaths from all causes. Of these killings, more than half were involuntary (1,040 involuntary lethal injections and 4,941 involuntary intentional overdoses). Applying those percentages to the U.S. death rate would mean more than 170,000 deaths each year caused by euthanasia or assisted suicide, and about 85,000 of these involuntary, more than the current number of U.S. suicides and homicides combined.


(source link)

Okay, this is pathetic, even worse than hypocrisy. You know that woman in america that was in a coma, that (according to her husband) wanted to die, and christianfundamentalists and Republicans (and of course Bush) tried to avoid her death and the media talked about nothing but that woman's right to live et cetera...america seems pretty pro-life there eh? But did you know that daily tens of (mainly black) children are killed in the US WITHOUT parental permission while there is a big chance for them to survive? Those things are not told in the american media, because it damages the american image.
Those 'facts' that you give are not true. 90.000? Right, i'd first check your sources before posting such dumb numbers.



kayetes
Snowy Owl
Snowy Owl

User avatar

Joined: 18 Dec 2006
Gender: Male
Posts: 144
Location: Germany

15 Feb 2007, 3:32 pm

snake321 wrote:
Euthanasia aside, I don't think it's right to condemn people for making a decision of free will. Our culture seems to demonize suicide, but if someone has a permanent problem that they can't do anything about, then suicide should be their right. One shouldn't be forced to live a miserable life just to make other people happy, what will happen is sooner or later that person will snap and quite possibly kill people who don't wish to die.
Like I said, suicide is a right, it's about self control and free will. Nobody knows what that person feels like except that person. Just as nobody has a right to take an innocent life against their will, one should have no right to make people live against their will either. A life is the express property of the individual who owns it. Take it from someone who has lived over 8 yrs riding the fence.


I wouldn't object if euthanasia would be possible to average people, of course under strict supervision, laws and moral standards. There are ways to die fast and with a minimum of suffering.



jimservo
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jun 2006
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,964
Location: Philadelphia Suburbs

15 Feb 2007, 5:50 pm

Pug wrote:
HAHA I'm sorry but you Americans are so dumb and naive.


Why is it necessary to insult me?

Pug wrote:
You know, I actually live in Holland and I can say that's NOT true.


I'm glad you can confirm that. The document listed is a document from the Dutch government, not some American propaganda piece. I will find additional sources later and post them.

Pug wrote:
My God, you know that we dutch can laugh days about the stupidity of americans? For reasons like this, because all americans seem to believe what the american media say about holland.


I find it interesting that you are willing to engage in such group hatred, my European friend. This would simply comfirm studies that show that Americans are more tolerant and less racist then Europeans. And again, I will get the source link later.

Pug wrote:
Those things are not told in the american media, because it damages the american image.


Really? Do you think America's media is government controlled? Perhaps that's why the major media in the United States spent more then a month reporting the abu-Graib prisoner abuse scandel as it's leading story? Perhaps that why CBS news, one of the three top rated American networks, was forced to admit it used fake documents in attempting to show President Bush was AWOL in the National Guard. Perhaps that why many of America's most read newspapers have editorialized against the present adminstration and have leaked classified anti-terrorism programs that have actually stopped terrorist plots, thus causing the programs to be shut down?

Pug wrote:
the media talked about nothing but that woman's right to live et cetera


The national news media in the United States is not generally sympathetic to the Pro-Life movement. This includes efforts by the Schindler family during the starvation of Terri Schiavo.

Pug wrote:
But did you know that daily tens of (mainly black) children are killed in the US WITHOUT parental permission while there is a big chance for them to survive?


The murder rate in US cities is terrible, although it has been decreasing generally. I don't support the murder of anyone regardless of their age, or the color of their skin.

Pug wrote:
Those 'facts' that you give are not true. 90.000? Right, i'd first check your sources before posting such dumb numbers.


To quote once again:

Quote:
These figures are startling. Of the approximately 90,000 Dutch people whose deaths involved end-of-life medical decision-making in 1990, 11,140 were intentionally killed (euthanized) or assisted in suicide—or 11.1 percent of all Dutch deaths involving medical decision-making! This is approximately 8.5 percent of Dutch deaths from all causes. Of these killings, more than half were involuntary (1,040 involuntary lethal injections and 4,941 involuntary intentional overdoses).



Last edited by jimservo on 15 Feb 2007, 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jimservo
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jun 2006
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,964
Location: Philadelphia Suburbs

15 Feb 2007, 5:51 pm

kayetes wrote:
I wouldn't object if euthanasia would be possible to average people, of course under strict supervision, laws and moral standards. There are ways to die fast and with a minimum of suffering.


Would you at least be opposed to euthanasia to those who had not requested it?



jimservo
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jun 2006
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,964
Location: Philadelphia Suburbs

15 Feb 2007, 6:08 pm

snake321 wrote:
Our culture seems to demonize suicide, but if someone has a permanent problem that they can't do anything about, then suicide should be their right. One shouldn't be forced to live a miserable life just to make other people happy, what will happen is sooner or later that person will snap and quite possibly kill people who don't wish to die.


Suicide is either selfish or the product of mental illness. One does not naturally wish to kill one self. Human beings are programed with the desire to survive. To say that a person that wishes to commit suicide very well may kill someone is insulting to those who have suicidal tendencies. Someone who kills someone has problems far beyond "mere" suicide.

To say that a suicide can be OK is the equivalent to the abandonment of a human being. It is morally wrong.

snake321 wrote:
Like I said, suicide is a right, it's about self control and free will. Nobody knows what that person feels like except that person. Just as nobody has a right to take an innocent life against their will, one should have no right to make people live against their will either. A life is the express property of the individual who owns it. Take it from someone who has lived over 8 yrs riding the fence.


My mother committed suicide. The effects of suicide do not stop with the person them self. They go outward like a shockwave.

Suicide is NOT a right, and has never traditionally been regarded as such in Western thought. Suicide was once thought so sinful and criminal to be punishable by death (I certainly don't advocate punishment, I am just making the point) In certainly is was not put up as such in the United States Constitution, which speaks not of it or anything vaguely similar to it in anyway, although the Courts are known to ignore the Constitution in making their rulings (ie: Roe v. Wade).



snake321
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,135

15 Feb 2007, 8:56 pm

Are you gonna offer a non-religious-based argument why it's wrong? I've been riding the razor's edge for about 8 yrs and could fall off at any moment, I don't think it's being selfish, I shouldn't be expected to live a miserable life for others if I can't be happy myself. To suggest I should live for others and suffer an entire lifetime, that to me sounds selfish. I wasn't ever given an option, I didn't choose if I would be born, where, how, when, or any of this s**t. Why should I not have the choice to say no to it all if I feel it's my better option?



jimservo
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jun 2006
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,964
Location: Philadelphia Suburbs

15 Feb 2007, 9:25 pm

snake321 wrote:
Are you gonna offer a non-religious-based argument why it's wrong? I've been riding the razor's edge for about 8 yrs and could fall off at any moment, I don't think it's being selfish, I shouldn't be expected to live a miserable life for others if I can't be happy myself. To suggest I should live for others and suffer an entire lifetime, that to me sounds selfish. I wasn't ever given an option, I didn't choose if I would be born, where, how, when, or any of this s**t. Why should I not have the choice to say no to it all if I feel it's my better option?


I have not offered any religious arguments. I'm sorry that your life has been difficult.

I would argue that suicide is selfish becomes it harms the many for the "good" of the one.

Strictly speaking what I said earlier was not correct, suicide thoughts is not a mental illness in and end itself. From the website of the Surgeon General:

Quote:
Although suicide cannot be defined as a mental disorder, the various risk factors—especially the presence of mood disorders—that predispose young people to such behavior are given special emphasis in this section, as is a discussion of the effectiveness of various forms of treatment. The evidence is strong that over 90 percent of children and adolescents who commit suicide have a mental disorder, as explained later in this section.


(source link)

To harm oneself is destructive, and it is the job of the medical profession to help make sure those who are suicidal sure not only those do not harm themselves, assist the patient with whatever mental issues that may be related to suicidal urges.

...

We clearly have a philosophical disagree here. Again, I am sorry you are having a difficult life.



snake321
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,135

15 Feb 2007, 9:55 pm

I'll be ok.... I'll probably be taking a leave of absense from the forum starting this sunday, i'll be checking myself into a clinic to get my thoughts together..... I need some time alone to myself. I'll probably be gone no longer than a week or two. Because I know if I were to kill myself my mom would have a heart attack and die, and my little brother would kill himself. So I won't let that happen..... I'll go where I can find solitude to collect my thoughts and heel my wounds and figure out where I want to be and how I'm gonna get there.