Anti-discrimination laws

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Most laws prohibit the discrimination of a group of people (ie. anti racist laws, anti-blasphemy laws), carrying harsher sentences for people who
discriminate a group of people, rather than those who discriminate individuals.

But I have always felt that a group is less important than the individuals. The group is a group, because it consists of MANY individuals, who, because they
are many, contrary to the individual, are better capable of protecting themselves than the individual.

Therefore I believe that the penalties for breaking the anti-discrimination laws of groups of people (ie. racist laws) and the offenses to individuals, should be reversed
respectively so that the discrimination of individuals are punished more severely.

The individuals needs more protection from society than the groups of people
because the groups can defend themselves better than individuals.

I am not a racist, I just feel that the muslims, christians or jews or blacks or whites, can defend themselves better than those who are
targetted for their personal features.

In addition, I believe that the punishment for discriminating people because of their color of their skin or their ethnicity, should carry a tougher sentence today,
but this should be followed up by complete abolishment of laws against discriminating people on basis of their religion or other self-chosen features.

You CHOOSE to be a muslim, christian, jew, whatever, but you don't choose your color of your skin, or your nationality or ethnicity.


To sum it up:

* Tougher sentences for insulting individuals, softer punishment for discriminating groups of people.

* Tougher sentences for discriminating people on basis of non-self chosen features (color of skin, ethnicity, disabilities etc.) and
complete abolishment of anti-discrimiation laws protecting people from discrimination because of their religion or political oppinions.

You don't choose what you believe though.

Jewishness is an ethnicity as well as a religion.

Muslims and Christians aren't ethnicities, they're just religions.

Religion and ethnic backgrounds are very often tied though.

I think social cohesion requires a degree of tolerance, and that's what anti-discrimination laws are designed to bring about. I'm happy with businesses being prosecuted if they refuse to serve anyone because of a personal issue they have with that person. If you don't do this then people get angry, develop a persecution complex, productivity suffers, and you get a range of cascading effects that amounts to society being a less pleasant place to live in for everybody. For this, and a range of other reasons, it's important that our institutions enforce anti-discrimination laws for all groups.

It is always worrying when somebody removes a particular group from protections under such laws. The Australian federal government has recently removed some of those protections for refugees, in my opinion, in order that they can be more efficiently scapegoated for political capital.

To play devils advocate, I have often witnessed minorities bullying someone with the objective of getting the person to use racist language, in order to get that person fired, or prosecuted; often non bigoted people will say bigoted things because they know they will wound. Thus, we should not assume that the person who says bigoted things is always the aggressor in every conflict. Sometimes they are the victim.

Last edited by Stannis on 11 Mar 2014, 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Hmmm . . . tricky.

Does a person get to discriminate against someone who is gay if they believe that it is a choice?

Should we be allowed to discriminate against people who have beards? Speak a different language? Belong to the "wrong" political party? Have a beer with dinner? Donate to the ACLU or to the NRA?

If I own the only place that sells produce in a desolate urban area, should I be allowed to refuse entry to someone who eats pork or shellfish? What if I don't approve of the shabby clothes they are wearing? What if I don't drink, should I be able to refuse service to someone that I saw coming out of an AA meeting because they used to?

Regardless of one's personal beliefs, there is an objective, scientific truth, which is that one's orientation is defined by physiology of the brain.
Therefore it is not a choice. Regardless of people's beliefs.

That would be the same as saying that "I believe that rocks can fly by themselves like birds and choose their own path and destination". It is and still will be untrue, at any moment.



Yes. It is a choice.




No, because language is hardwired in your brain during your upbringing and childhood.



You certainly choose which political party you belong to. Answer is YES!
Most certainly.



Again, this is a choice, and my answer is therefore: Yes.



Yes.



Yes.



Your business.



Yes.

But this whole issue is about people's beliefs, not about facts.

And after reading your post in full with your tacit approval of widespread discrimination over the most miniscule things, I think it unlikely for this debate to go anywhere good.

Isn't it funny that most of these comments discriminate in order to not discriminate

Your thinking is flawed, because it pre-supposes free will, which is not real.

To whom is this directed?

I have mixed feelings about this issue. While I abhor discrimination, I also think that business owners have the right to base their hiring practices on whatever they choose, and base their serving practices on whatever they choose. I would hope that social pressure would stop people from ridiculous discrimination, because when it's overt and public then people will know the policies of the place and can choose to not patronize the business, or to patronize it.

I do think that larger businesses should be prevented from discriminating, but I think that mom and pop businesses should be able to say they won't hire somebody because they don't like their shoes, or brunettes, or religious people, or whatever ridiculous reason they want. I don't support the discrimination itself but I support the personal freedom to choose who works for you, if that makes sense.

So if I have a small business, I should be allowed to base my hiring decisions entirely on the color of your skin?

What if I am one of only a handful of small businesses in a town, and we all band together to refuse employment to anyone who is not a white Southern Baptist male? Should that be allowed?

I believe in equal opportunity, which means just that: Equal. Opportunity.

Every single person should be allowed the same chance to prove their worth through their abilities, not through their beliefs, genetics, politics, nationality, sex, age, or sexuality. If someone can do the job best, then they should get the job, regardless of how the employer feels about non-job related characteristics.

I believe in equal opportunity too, and I'm very much against discrimination. The thing is, I'm also for personal freedom for people to be a**holes if they so choose to be. I don't think it should apply to large corporations, but small businesses that are privately owned should be able to refuse to hire anybody for any reason. The thing is, I think that when people discriminate like that, the word should be spread about them pretty fast so they lose business. Even in this small Southern town that is 99% Baptist, a business that did that would lose quite a bit of customers. I think the pressure of that would cause them to rethink their hiring practices.

One of the main reasons I think this is that people who want to discriminate and are bound and determined to do so, will find a way to do it and use other reasons for it. Say I owned a business and wanted to only hire Italians or Pagans, I could find a way to bring up something in conversation to find out if they were Italian or Pagan without directly asking them. Then I could simply say that I felt their personality suited the job better than the other applicants. I could also say that I wanted to give someone with less experience a chance. I could do the same thing if I wanted to exclude a certain race, sex, religion, ethnicity, etc. It's done every day, and while suspected it's not flat out known about. Making it legal to state it up front would bring it out into the open so normal people could show our disdain of discrimination. Bigots would still go to those stores, but I think that are fewer bigots than there are regular people, so the store wouldn't do very well until they changed their policy.

There is a Christian book store here in town that only hires Protestant Christians. They say that's because they want their employees to be familiar with the material they sell and the philosophy behind it. I'm sure somebody could challange that in court but it's not really worth it because who would want to work for a person that didn't want you working for them to begin with? They would find some way to fire you soon anyway. If I were wanting to buy a Christian book for a Christian friend I wouldn't go to that store, simply because of the fact they only hire Christians, I would go to Wal Mart, which also sells Christian books. The people who go there are perfectly fine with that practice, but it's a really small store and doesn't make much money.

As for the scenario where the businesses got together and decided to hire only white Southern Baptists, if thats going to happen it will happen whether there are laws against it or not. Just like if they decided to hire only black Jehovah's Witnesses or Asian Buddhists, etc. Giving people the freedom to show their ignorance would do a much better job of teaching them that it's not tolerated by the majority than making them feel that it's just the government doing it to them.

Do you see what I'm saying? I know it sounds like I support discrimination but I don't at all. I just support a different way of teaching people that it's not acceptable. And I also think that everybody has a right to be an a**hole where their personal property is concerned. Even though a business may be public, if it's privately owned and small, I say give them enough rope to hang themselves.

Why would you go to a town full of angry white Southern Baptists and then stay there seeking gainful employment? I don't see how the government saying, " Yes, these people are different and must be discriminated from the rest less they be wrongfully discriminated" is going to help. Forcing people to accept others does not exactly sound ideal to me.

Look at it another way. Say you started a business and wanted to only hire other aspies. Not only because it's more difficult for aspies to get jobs at times and you want to help out, but also because you are more comfortable around them. That could very well be seen as discrimination against NT's and illegal. Should you be allowed to do that?

What about a minority owned business that wants to hire only minorities in order to give them a chance? That can be discrimination too.

A Pagan owned business that only hires Pagans can be discrimination. A Kosher deli that only hires Jews can be discrimination.

Discrimination doesn't just have to be white protestants. It can come in many forms. While white protestants are usually not discriminated against very often, it can happen, so before saying that small businesses shouldn't have the right to hire based on whatever their personal criteria is, think about other situations where it can happen.

If I were to open a metaphysical book store, which I'd like to do but never will, I'd prefer to hire only Pagans because Pagan themed books would be what I mainly sold, not an assortment of different types. Would I be discriminating? If I opened an Italian restaurant and wanted to hire only other Italians, would that be discrimination as well? Would it matter what my reasons were? Maybe at the book store I'd want my employees to be familiar with the philosophy behind the books, like the Christian bookstore is here in town and it would have nothing to do with any ill will toward other religions - which I have absolutely none of. Would hiring only other Italians for the Italian restaurant because I'd like it to have a certain ambiance be discrimination, even though most of the people I know, am related to and hang out with aren't at all Italian and I have no issue with non Italians? Or is it only discrimination in your opinion if I say "I'll hire everybody except this group"?