Conservative admits no voter fraud

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People on the left should embrace responsible firearm ownership, and do so vocally.

Many people want (or are forced into) a lifestyle of self sufficiency, and in that situation, firearms aid survival. It should not be considered a purely rightwing culture or affectation. It is only an accident of (american) history that has made it seem that way. If there is another great depression, if there are food shortages, or if your community for some reason falls into lawlessness (remember Katrina?) you'll wish you had firearms wherever you stand on the political spectrum.

In my country, guns were confiscated, and although I have no personal interest in firearms, I think that confiscation was short sighted because It assumes that the present state of affairs will exist in perpetuity.

The most important reason for the comparative left to embrace firearms in the U.S, is so the (bigger) bastards don't continue to win over the gun nuts. I say this from a motivation of self preservation as well as empathy for you guys, because I panic when the leaders of the worlds most powerful nation are neocons, tea baggers, and functionally illiterate bumpkins who think we are living in the end times.

I think you give the founders far too much credit in regard to race relations. Many of them were slave owners, and slaves were not even counted as full human beings in the constitution. So I'm not going to give them credit for intending to give blacks equality, or even the choice to marry outside their race.
And as for your and Raptor's take on progressives - those progressives live only in the imaginings of the right.
And while asking for ID in itself would not seem racist, the reality is, purchasing proper ID is sometimes not financially plausible for poor people, and it's a proven fact that state licensing offices in predominantly black areas were conveniently closed after voter ID laws were passed in Wisconsin, Florida and other states. Demanding that voters purchase proper ID in order to vote amounts to a poll tax, which is clearly evil. While in Wisconsin, it is possible for poor voters to have cost for proper ID waived, state workers were in fact threatened to not reveal this fact. One who did was in fact fired. In my home state of Washington, voter cards are in fact provided free of charge to all voters - I fail to understand why this isn't the case everywhere, unless there is a concerted effort to keep minorities and poor people from voting.

It was written to address the rights of the people and the role of government. While at the time most blacks were slaves and not considered citizens, they were later freed and became regular citizens. The constitution does not and should not distinguish one race from the others.[/quote]


You provide a good example of those progressives.

Now you're slamming two BLUE STATES by name for voter suppression. And voter ID cards arent free if someone somewhere has to pay for them. Let's face it, even if in each of those evil states, blue or red, made ID's for free the next thing you'd want is free transportation to and from the polls for the "marginalised", and something else after that.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsV50T5uEyw[/youtube][/youtube]

Here's a woman who voted six times in the '12 election (some of the charges were dropped as part of a plea bargain). No doubt she's the only one . . .

. . . who got caught. Nope, there is no voter fraud, nosiree . . . .

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/po ... o/6712981/

From the story:
I guess Sharpton endorses voter fraud, too. Who would have ever guessed?

I'm guessing she didn't vote republican, otherwise the tolerant and open minded democrats would have pressed for a harsher sentence.

And I didnt even read the whole thing.

You provide a good example of those progressives.

Now you're slamming two BLUE STATES by name for voter suppression. And voter ID cards arent free if someone somewhere has to pay for them. Let's face it, even if in each of those evil states, blue or red, made ID's for free the next thing you'd want is free transportation to and from the polls for the "marginalised", and something else after that.[/quote]

Of course the constitution doesn't distinguish between people. But the founders did, sadly enough. Thankfully, their creation was better than they were.
And what's possibly wrong with voter ID cards paid for by the tax payers? It's certainly better than putting the burden on people who can scarcely afford it.
And how am I slamming blue states for voter suppression? I'm slamming any state where there is a concerted effort to keep certain voters from the polls.
And as a matter of fact, there are often volunteers who drive people to the polls.

You have one example of voter fraud. Until you can prove that it's happening beyond this one example, then you can't say that it's a rampant problem.
By the way, my late Mom had been an election poll worker, and neither she nor the Republicans she worked with would ever have considered doing something as dishonest as this stupid cow did. I'm extremely disappointed in Al Sharpton for defending this woman.

They were a product of an era with beliefs and standards that you or I will never be able to fully grasp. It's damn near pointless to judge them on just about anything. 200+ years from now people will look back and judge us just the same and we'll come up short by 2214 (and later) standards by a set of rules and values out of our present day frame of reference.


Or we could just do away with all forms of voter ID and dismiss the risk of voter fraud as a risk of freedom. At the same time we can also do away with other generally ineffective and hinderous precautions on other rights and accept the risks associated with that right as a risk of freedom. I could live with both and never even think about voter fraud again. You know where this is going, again, don't you? It's relevant so that's why I use it.


You're admitting that those two blue states, Wisconsin and Florida, are not as progressive as progressive would like non-progressives to believe all blue states are, compared to red states.


And I have no issues with that either. If I'm not mistaken, you have stated in other threads on "voter suppression" that you believe it should go a big step further and have transportation provided at taxpayer expense

Wisconsin and Florida are sort of in that in between ground - they may have gone for Obama, but they still have exceedingly right wing governors, state legislatures, and have enacted very right wind social policies. Regardless if a state is red or blue, I'll call them out when it comes to such things.
In regard to the founders, you sir... are absolutely right. I was actually trying to make a point to Moviefan when I brought up that point, that they were not without fault concerning race. But I couldn't agree with you more that they were only products of their time, and if anything, they were well ahead of most others of their period when it came to tolerance and fairness.
And as for transporting voters to the polls - - I don't recall suggesting that it should be done, but that doesn't mean that I hadn't.

Raptor, what political news sources/ books do you recommend? I am interested in where you get your political understanding.

I never said the Founders were completely blameless on ethnic issues, but recognizing why they avoided prohibiting slavery in the Constitution is very important. At that time, people in some states were still very blatantly hateful towards those with dark skin, and the U.S. was a young country mired in the Revolutionary War. The Founders knew that those states would likely secede, so they temporarily laid that conflict aside to keep the colonies united. After the war ended, debates about slavery resumed, until the 13th Amendment was adopted in 1864. During that 80-year period, many people deliberately purchased slaves only to free them, including George Washington, John Dickinson, Caesar Rodney, William Livingston, George Wythe, and John Randolph of Roanoke. Slavery had been the standard in Great Britain under the rule of King George III, and once the U.S. successfully achieved separation from England, slaves were released because their owners were no longer under British rule. Many of the Founders outright refused to own slaves, one of the most famous quotes coming from John Adams ("never in my life did I own a slave").

I agree, there were definitely good people among the founding generation, as well as bad. And as I told Raptor, for all their faults, the founding fathers were still far ahead of most of their contemporaries.

But blue none-the-less. I can tell you from personal experience of living in Florida that the more densely populated counties are very progressive, especially Orlando, the Tampa Bay area, and everything from the Palm Beaches down to the keys. Also very racially and culturally diverse. Wisconsin has long been known as a democrat state so I don't know where you're coming from there.


Gee, it looks like we might actually agree on something.


I'll have to go back and find it. I think it's the same thread where Marshall told JohnBrowning to crawl under a rock and choke on his own s**t. I remember that because it cracked me up so much. I haven't seen either one of those two in several months or longer.

Blue, but F'd up, just the same.
And as I recall, we've agreed on a few other occasions, in the past.

As a hate filled conservative, I can only recommend Fox as a new source and you should know that.
My politics were born out of living in a democrat run household as a kid. About the time I was 14 it became obvious that my values were different than that of my parents.
I didn't read any book titled "How To Become A Conservative In Five Easy Steps" or anything like that. I didnt become a conservative to be like anyone else either. It's more like I gradually adopted conservative values but only later found out that they had a political affiliation. I lean a little more rightward here than what I actually am to make up for the political imbalance that you'll deny there is.