Criminal immigrants reoffend at higher rates than ICE says

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Darmok
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05 Jun 2016, 10:51 pm

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2016/0 ... story.html

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Criminal immigrants reoffend at higher rates than ICE has suggested

By Maria Sacchetti GLOBE STAFF JUNE 04, 2016

They were among the nation’s top priorities for deportation, criminals who were supposed to be sent back to their home countries. But instead they were released, one by one, in secret across the United States. Federal officials said that many of the criminals posed little threat to the public, but did little to verify whether that was true.

It wasn’t.

A Globe review of 323 criminals released in New England from 2008 to 2012 found that as many as 30 percent committed new offenses, including rape, attempted murder, and child molestation — a rate that is markedly higher than Immigration and Customs Enforcement officials have suggested to Congress in the past.

The names of these criminals have never before been made public and are coming to light now only because the Globe sued the federal government for the list of criminals immigration authorities returned to neighborhoods across the country. A judge ordered the names released in 2013, and the Globe then undertook the work that the federal government didn’t, scouring court records to find out how many released criminals reoffended.
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Read the full story at the link above.


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seaweed
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07 Jun 2016, 6:12 am

323 = not a great sample size.
besides between 2008-2012 and being in New England, how did they go about choosing these people?
obviously allowing a murderer to go free is bad and shouldn't happen.
but also, illegal immigrants don't have the same options as legal people, and so to make money and take care of their families, illegal activities are one of the only viable options. especially if they got here with help from a gang, which is common. then if they don't work for the gang their life and their family's lives are at risk.
re-offenders of what? in lots of states its a felony for even having a pound of weed. so they go to jail and then their options are even further lessened because now they have a criminal record in addition to being undocumented. and they've lost their weed. this type of person is doomed to either make money illegally in the United States and reoffend (even working for in an otherwise legal operation is usually illegal because it's easier and more economically beneficial for an employer to pay under the table and the worker to use all the earned money to pay for living expenses and thus commit tax fraud aka felony), or be deported back to their home country where they obviously went to great lengths to get away from, and maybe even work legally on a United States corporate owned monoculture farm and use that money to buy food imported from the United States because most of the viable land in the country is owned by United States industries. just for example, since that article made a point to take the most extreme examples of the worst cases.
Im not saying it's okay to sell dangerous drugs or be involved in gangs and violence, and I'm not saying tax evasion is no big deal, but the problem isn't just on them and simply deporting them isn't even a practical solution for the actual issue of crime because the United States has failed these people much more than they have failed the United States.
the article and the studies it quotes focuses on violent offenders and the obviously bad practice of making it easy for them to be freed and reoffend violently on US soil rather than the problem of illegal immigrant crime as a whole. it's fear mongering through hyperfocus and omission.



ZenDen
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07 Jun 2016, 2:42 pm

"and maybe even work legally on a United States corporate owned monoculture farm and use that money to buy food imported from the United States because most of the viable land in the country is owned by United States industries"

I'll call BS on this unless you prove it. My experience in business dealing with Mexicans (in Mexico) is they're very defensive of both their land and their oil and, because of their being taken advantage of in the past, are like pit bulls guarding their resources.

Also: 323 is not a bad sample size statistically.

Illegal immigrants have chosen to be illegal as part of their attempt at success. There are many ongoing illegal activities illegals continue to do to continue to live in the U.S.A. (Falsifying school and birth records for example).

They already know they will be deported if caught...it's not a big surprise that can not be planned for; and they do.

The thing that annoys me the most, however, is people such as yourself who are constantly making a big BOO-HOO trying to protect these poor people from immigration while you should be thinking about the reasons WHY these people are here and HOW they've completely baffled the government efforts to close the border.

Agri-business hire lobbyists who work with congressmen and congresswomen to create laws (and defeat other laws) that will benefit agri-business. The border security is a joke and business and politicians make sure nothing is changed and the unimpeded flow of poor people from Mexico to farms continues, and THIS is what/why they are made illegal.

If you turn your back on the inhumane illegal status conferred on these people then that makes you a "vote" for the way things are happening now. EVERY SINGLE PART OF THIS SYSTEM MUST BE CHANGED TO MAKE A WORKABLE SOLUTION.

P.S. If you lived in an area controlled by MS13 I bet you might think differently about your "violent offenders." No one should have to put up with this violence, regardless of ethnicity. Think of others and how THEY have to live when you dismiss violence...no one should have to put up with this, ever. And downplaying this aspect certainly disrespects the people who have to live near people like this; they want to see the problem resolved as well.



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07 Jun 2016, 9:36 pm

oh i wasn't referring to Mexico. i had the Dominican Republic in mind, and also i made this crazy example because i have a weird sense of humor and found the op's article examples to be the most extremely horrific examples they could find, which reads to me as manipulative because it uses extreme violence to push an anti-immigration agenda. kinda like how videos depicting the torture of animals attempt to use fear and guilt to convince people to become vegan, while not even mentioning the option to raise happy hens or hunt for venison and things like that. it was more of a joke but i'll pm you if you're still interested.

"323 is not a bad sample size statistically"
okay, fine :)
but also the article says that 201 of this group were convicted killers and 116 of this group were traffic law violators. that only leaves 6 "others" and this to me seems off, perhaps selected in bias or incredible coincidence.

"Illegal immigrants have chosen to be illegal as part of their attempt at success."
yes, ultimately it's their decision whether to go through legal or illegal channels but i question whether most people would risk going through illegal channels if they could easily choose the legal option.

"The thing that annoys me the most, however, is people such as yourself who are constantly making a big BOO-HOO trying to protect these poor people from immigration while you should be thinking about the reasons WHY these people are here and HOW they've completely baffled the government efforts to close the border."
if you were hoping i was sitting over here in my princess suite sobbing about the poor homicidal meth-dealing rapist gang affiliated criminals who are also illegal immigrants you'll be disappointed.
my argument is that this article and the way it omits information about all criminal trends in illegal immigration and narrowly focuses on specific, horrific information is clearly biased towards anti-immigration policies in general. obviously we're on different sides here but no sane person would argue that violent offenders who are also illegal citizens should be dismissed so carelessly. i just think this article and has a specific motive beyond exposing the failure of ICE to protect law-abiding US citizens and properly deal with violent illegal immigrants, and i don't think it's inherently bad to have a specific motive, but it is reasonable to address other perspectives and different motives without being indiscriminately labelled as a violent-criminal sympathizer haha
its like saying that i'm a bathroom-sexual offender sympathizer because i support non gender binary people using the public restroom of their choice.

"If you lived in an area controlled by MS13 I bet you might think differently about your 'violent offenders.' No one should have to put up with this violence, regardless of ethnicity. Think of others and how THEY have to live when you dismiss violence...no one should have to put up with this, ever. And downplaying this aspect certainly disrespects the people who have to live near people like this; they want to see the problem resolved as well."
i was not downplaying gang activity and violence or disrespecting anyone who has to be exposed to it, that's really just how you chose to perceive my post. i assumed anyone who had interest in this topic would read the article and get enough of that. i was not advocating for violent criminals whatsoever. i was suggesting that the policies which have created and which can come from this type of manipulative narrow focus are not necessarily helpful in reducing illegal immigrant crime, aka the unanimous goal, right?

"Agri-business hire lobbyists who work with congressmen and congresswomen to create laws (and defeat other laws) that will benefit agri-business. The border security is a joke and business and politicians make sure nothing is changed and the unimpeded flow of poor people from Mexico to farms continues, and THIS is what/why they are made illegal."
"If you turn your back on the inhumane illegal status conferred on these people then that makes you a "vote" for the way things are happening now. EVERY SINGLE PART OF THIS SYSTEM MUST BE CHANGED TO MAKE A WORKABLE SOLUTION."
nor did i turn my back on illegal migrant workers who deserve legal benefits (i'm honestly not sure how you came to that conclusion), i simply suggested that it may not be practical to punish the disadvantaged group for doing whatever they can to achieve success rather than punish the much more powerful food industries and their government allies for exploiting them and in turn, strive to provide safer ways for well-meaning people to find legal work and not be treated like criminals for wanting to do better for themselves and their families. being labelled and treated as a criminal makes it that much less accessible to be a law abiding person, and channels people directly towards gangs, drugs, and violence; other systems which can protect them and provide for them. the obama policy change probably helped to alleviate some of these issues because of the recommended switch to a heavier focus on employers rather than employees, but has not made a huge impact because it still caters to relatively small scale criminals rather than address the criminal behaviors of the bigger united states corporations which the government defends.



ZenDen
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08 Jun 2016, 11:45 am

The industrialists and government officials (their stooges) the industries and their lobbyists are all responsible for this "fine kettle of fish" we find ourselves immersed in.

But the other criminal act is committed by the illegal immigrant when he or she decides it's worth while to break laws of the United States and become a criminal to pursue a better future for themselves and their families. However this is a real crime, leads to further crimes and should not be excused. These, highly motivated immigrants, know what breaking the law means. They know beforehand they can be shipped home, and they plan for that contingency as well. These are NOT totally ignorant helpless people.

From the actions of the two groups noted, the United States and it's people have been damaged....ignoring jobs (and etc) emergency rooms and hospitals continue to be overrun (and closed/put out of operation) by these non-paying patients. All social services, including schools, have been, and continue to be, damaged. I'm sure you get the idea (although you may not feel personally affected).

Both sets of criminals deserve punishment and and deserve to make retribution, not encouragement for their illegal and destructive actions.

P.S. It's considered good style in forums such as this to break large paragraphs into smaller more readable chunks. :)



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08 Jun 2016, 8:16 pm

nor did I ever say they are ignorant or helpless. but thanks for the pro-tip about paragraph chunking.



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09 Jun 2016, 9:00 am

"nor did I ever say they are ignorant or helpless" No, you did not, although it seems you would treat them this way...perhaps a little more special and more loving than the way you would treat the average criminal (?).

So, if illegal immigrants are normal human beings, with all of the normal attributes of human beings, then they should be treated as mentating beings and not as some "underclass", incapable of thought, and not responsible for their actions.

This means they should be prosecuted for their freely chosen life of crime against the U.S. and by their conscious breaking of Federal and other laws. Now. Gently but firmly.



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09 Jun 2016, 9:07 am

criminal reoffenders should be serving a sentence for illegally entering the country on top of whatever they did to get themselves arrested



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09 Jun 2016, 12:04 pm

Jacoby wrote:
criminal reoffenders should be serving a sentence for illegally entering the country on top of whatever they did to get themselves arrested


I'd mentioned elsewhere the immigrants coming into this country are NOT veted for criminal (and etc.) activity. I can only speculate if that means the percentage that will be rapists and murderers will be larger or smaller...I guess larger.

Not only will they reenter, but they will re-offend...this is the definition of a criminal. They should be forced into Mexican prisons, there is no reason for us to support them.



seaweed
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10 Jun 2016, 4:52 pm

ZenDen wrote:
it seems you would treat them this way...perhaps a little more special and more loving than the way you would treat the average criminal (?)


no i don't believe they deserve special treatment but i do believe the overall trend of criminal behavior in illegal immigrants deserves special treatment because understanding why and how is the first step to reducing rampant criminal behaviors (and also helping to relieve the rate of incarceration in the US in general). individual criminals will keep coming and coming because the channels through which they are doing so are not always held accountable, especially if they are affiliated with greater United States interests. this is something you've mentioned yourself.

the fact is that illegal immigrants ARE underclass people because they don't have legal education, job, or protection options and there are successful illegal means of acquiring these things which legal citizens take for granted. yes, it is ultimately the fault of the individual but its not because they are incapable of thought, but because for various reasons the US government isn't keen on giving these people much of a chance to acquire education, jobs, and protection legally. it's not that they shouldn't be held responsible for their actions, especially violent offenders (in fact i do believe all violent offenders should be incarcerated and definitely not allowed freedom through holes in immigration policy), but does it make sense to have a bigger focus on the symptoms rather than the disease?

one more thing, i know i'm a young idealist and there are lots of flaws and gaps in my understanding of things, but personally attacking me and assuming things about me is not good form in a discussion setting. lets focus on the issues please.



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11 Jun 2016, 8:59 am

seaweed wrote:
ZenDen wrote:
it seems you would treat them this way...perhaps a little more special and more loving than the way you would treat the average criminal (?)


no i don't believe they deserve special treatment but i do believe the overall trend of criminal behavior in illegal immigrants deserves special treatment because understanding why and how is the first step to reducing rampant criminal behaviors (and also helping to relieve the rate of incarceration in the US in general). individual criminals will keep coming and coming because the channels through which they are doing so are not always held accountable, especially if they are affiliated with greater United States interests. this is something you've mentioned yourself.

the fact is that illegal immigrants ARE underclass people because they don't have legal education, job, or protection options and there are successful illegal means of acquiring these things which legal citizens take for granted. yes, it is ultimately the fault of the individual but its not because they are incapable of thought, but because for various reasons the US government isn't keen on giving these people much of a chance to acquire education, jobs, and protection legally. it's not that they shouldn't be held responsible for their actions, especially violent offenders (in fact i do believe all violent offenders should be incarcerated and definitely not allowed freedom through holes in immigration policy), but does it make sense to have a bigger focus on the symptoms rather than the disease?

one more thing, i know i'm a young idealist and there are lots of flaws and gaps in my understanding of things, but personally attacking me and assuming things about me is not good form in a discussion setting. lets focus on the issues please.


lets focus on the issues please. Thank you; I'll try. :D

You say: "obviously we're on different sides here" But I don't think we're on different sides at all. I believe the illegal immigrant deserves help. food, shelter...etc., etc...just as you...I don't believe in promoting suffering..except I believe aid should be limited, where as you seem ready to support all of these people forever with NO plan for the future, except to encourage more to come here permanently. They should be going home.

In the discussion about gangs and MS13 you say: " i was not advocating for violent criminals whatsoever. i was suggesting that the policies which have created and which can come from this type of manipulative narrow focus are not necessarily helpful in reducing illegal immigrant crime, aka the unanimous goal, right? This "narrow focus" you mention is caused by people living in the midst of criminal activity is not a "narrow focus" at all but rather a "necessary" focus because, you see, the gang situation becomes worse and worse and citizens of the United States, as well as illegal immigrants have a right to live without terror. If you were living in such a neighborhood you would understand better what I'm saying. Maybe you're not trying to downplay this, but that's what I read.

"nor did i turn my back on illegal migrant workers who deserve legal benefits (i'm honestly not sure how you came to that conclusion) It's partially through the support of people who don't understand the situation that this terrible system continues. I used to be exactly where you are some years ago (you're 21, I'm 73). Not only did I speak for the workers, but I and my wife and two toddlers would go out and picket grocery stores (and etc.) for them and their basic human rights. I used to do free promotional photography for the Farm Workers. But through the years you find little has changed, and you start to wonder why. And you observe, and learn why this misery and pain continues, who pays and who doesn't pay for this, and what is supporting this cycle of shame.

the fact is that illegal immigrants ARE underclass people because they don't have legal education, job... the US government isn't keen on giving these people much of a chance to acquire education, jobs, and protection legally...but does it make sense to have a bigger focus on the symptoms rather than the disease?

These illegal immigrants should not be here. But you suggest we help them "acquire education, jobs, and protection legally." PLEASE TELL ME HOW THIS WILL HELP PREVENT FUTURE MISERY FOR UNTOLD THOUSANDS? A bandage is good when you need to stop specific bleeding but it does nothing to cure the disease, it can in fact promote the auwful situation.

one more thing, i know i'm a young idealist and there are lots of flaws and gaps in my understanding of things, but personally attacking me and assuming things about me is not good form in a discussion setting. lets focus on the issues please. This part of our forums is called "Politics, Philosophy, and Religion." In this forum you present and defend your personal opinions with others. Sometimes the forum can get "loud" but these should not be taken as "personal" attacks.
In this case I know nothing personal about you and we have been discussing the issue at hand. If I (or someone else) suggests you may have gaps and flaws and points these out????...well maybe it's time to learn.

And I, in my turn, take the position of student, when I participate in forums where I lack learning. :D

Love is the answer.



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13 Jun 2016, 3:31 pm

ZenDen wrote:
I believe aid should be limited, where as you seem ready to support all of these people forever with NO plan for the future, except to encourage more to come here permanently. They should be going home.

there's no positive incentive to stay home or go home. if there was, there wouldn't be an issue. you're right though, i have no freaking clue how that would work unless everything changed, and that's way too idealistic. however in respect to the issue of crime on US soil, i do think that crime would radically lessen if people were given a clear opportunity to work with a system which promotes growth rather than a system which restricts access. i am not trying to come up with a practical solution here, i'm saying that the issue of crime has a few different angles that should be considered in a discussion, especially because the op's article is so one-sided. and also i think that restricting access and sending people home is not a practical solution either because it's too internally focused.

ZenDen wrote:
In the discussion about gangs and MS13...If you were living in such a neighborhood you would understand better what I'm saying. Maybe you're not trying to downplay this, but that's what I read.

suggesting a different perspective in considering the issue is not downplaying the issue. suggesting i'm downplaying the issue is downplaying the benefit of understanding the issue on a bigger scale.

ZenDen wrote:
These illegal immigrants should not be here. But you suggest we help them "acquire education, jobs, and protection legally." PLEASE TELL ME HOW THIS WILL HELP PREVENT FUTURE MISERY FOR UNTOLD THOUSANDS? A bandage is good when you need to stop specific bleeding but it does nothing to cure the disease, it can in fact promote the auwful situation.

legally doesn't have to mean on US soil. help doesn't have to mean giving them free handouts. it could mean we stop exploiting their home country, actually provide political/economic aid to those countries which we have exploited and wreaked political havoc in rather than provide coercive aid which really benefits us under a humanitarian guise, punish the powerful organizations which caused them to need to come here so that we don't have to punish them for coming here or deal with them coming here with no government support and being immersed in gang activity and crime. i think just incarcerating them and sending them home is a band-aid. it's helpful in the moment but does nothing to prevent future injury and it distracts from the reasons why so many band-aids are needed in the first place.

ZenDen wrote:
This part of our forums is called "Politics, Philosophy, and Religion." In this forum you present and defend your personal opinions with others. Sometimes the forum can get "loud" but these should not be taken as "personal" attacks.
In this case I know nothing personal about you and we have been discussing the issue at hand. If I (or someone else) suggests you may have gaps and flaws and points these out????...well maybe it's time to learn.

And I, in my turn, take the position of student, when I participate in forums where I lack learning. :D

Love is the answer.

pointing them out and offering your perspective is different from assuming and attacking. i do not take your actual content as a personal attack and i have been trying to ignore the ways you have inserted petty attacks and unsubstantiated assumptions because i don't want to be grimy.



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14 Jun 2016, 9:58 am

seaweed wrote:
ZenDen wrote:
I believe aid should be limited, where as you seem ready to support all of these people forever with NO plan for the future, except to encourage more to come here permanently. They should be going home.

there's no positive incentive to stay home or go home. if there was, there wouldn't be an issue. you're right though, i have no freaking clue how that would work unless everything changed, and that's way too idealistic. however in respect to the issue of crime on US soil, i do think that crime would radically lessen if people were given a clear opportunity to work with a system which promotes growth rather than a system which restricts access. i am not trying to come up with a practical solution here, i'm saying that the issue of crime has a few different angles that should be considered in a discussion, especially because the op's article is so one-sided. and also i think that restricting access and sending people home is not a practical solution either because it's too internally focused.

ZenDen wrote:
In the discussion about gangs and MS13...If you were living in such a neighborhood you would understand better what I'm saying. Maybe you're not trying to downplay this, but that's what I read.

suggesting a different perspective in considering the issue is not downplaying the issue. suggesting i'm downplaying the issue is downplaying the benefit of understanding the issue on a bigger scale.

ZenDen wrote:
These illegal immigrants should not be here. But you suggest we help them "acquire education, jobs, and protection legally." PLEASE TELL ME HOW THIS WILL HELP PREVENT FUTURE MISERY FOR UNTOLD THOUSANDS? A bandage is good when you need to stop specific bleeding but it does nothing to cure the disease, it can in fact promote the auwful situation.

legally doesn't have to mean on US soil. help doesn't have to mean giving them free handouts. it could mean we stop exploiting their home country, actually provide political/economic aid to those countries which we have exploited and wreaked political havoc in rather than provide coercive aid which really benefits us under a humanitarian guise, punish the powerful organizations which caused them to need to come here so that we don't have to punish them for coming here or deal with them coming here with no government support and being immersed in gang activity and crime. i think just incarcerating them and sending them home is a band-aid. it's helpful in the moment but does nothing to prevent future injury and it distracts from the reasons why so many band-aids are needed in the first place.

ZenDen wrote:
This part of our forums is called "Politics, Philosophy, and Religion." In this forum you present and defend your personal opinions with others. Sometimes the forum can get "loud" but these should not be taken as "personal" attacks.
In this case I know nothing personal about you and we have been discussing the issue at hand. If I (or someone else) suggests you may have gaps and flaws and points these out????...well maybe it's time to learn.

And I, in my turn, take the position of student, when I participate in forums where I lack learning. :D

Love is the answer.

pointing them out and offering your perspective is different from assuming and attacking. i do not take your actual content as a personal attack and i have been trying to ignore the ways you have inserted petty attacks and unsubstantiated assumptions because i don't want to be grimy.


You say: "there's no positive incentive to stay home or go home. if there was, there wouldn't be an issue. you're right though, i have no freaking clue how that would work unless everything changed, and that's way too idealistic....."

Yes..we want to create an incentive for them to go home.

You say: You don't feel the gangs "situation" is important and that you "don't downplay the situation. I'd say it's very important to the people terrorized by them and these are the people who's decision matters in this area. What gives you the right to say your "bigger scale" means more than the day-to-day safety for themselves and their families?? It's really peoples lives we're talking about here. And we are the ones who let in the criminal element.

You say: "...legally doesn't have to mean on US soil"
And how would you accomplish that I wonder? Perhaps we should just give the money to the aristocratic rulers of Mexico and have them distribute??? Or perhaps they'll just let us roll in convoys of teachers and supplies. Have you thought this through????
The aristocracy in Mexico already has people living and surviving on garbage. And each of our previous presidents has been very very "kissy face" with the rulers of Mexico, so how do you think this will work??? With a country that kills bus loads of students and mows down any peasants bold enough to ask for land?

Bad idea, in my estimation...at least at this time. If Hillary gets in maybe she'll sponsor another coup; seems to be her specialty.

You say: "pointing them out (What "them"?)and offering your perspective is different from assuming and attacking. i do not take your actual content as a personal attack and....
i have been trying to ignore the ways you have inserted petty attacks and unsubstantiated assumptions because i don't want to be grimy.
If any of my comments seem "petty" to you, please don't feel shy...instead state how you feel using specific examples; is that fair???
i don't want to be grimy.
I think that is an admirable thought, although you tantalizingly don't say what you mean by "grimy" it doesn't sound good.

If you feel you're being picked on or I've used any "grimy" tactic in our discussion you should directly contact a moderator. The mods will review and adjudicate as necessary. But perhaps robust discussion is not for you? It's a matter of give-and-take...if you can't learn to "take" perhaps you shouldn't be in a forum such as this?

If I have been guilty of " you have inserted petty attacks and unsubstantiated assumptions" then please carefully point out these "unfair methods of discussion." Or any other reader: Pointing out my mistakes will be greeted with a smile. :D

I wait for your apology, as I, being a moral person, am careful to be scrupulous in my treatment of others.



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15 Jun 2016, 10:49 am

ZenDen wrote:
Illegal immigrants have chosen to be illegal as part of their attempt at success

For many, it seems like that's why they're successful ....

The employer wants to skip out on paying: unemployment insurance, worker's comp, medicare, income taxes, mandatory health care (ACA) ...



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15 Jun 2016, 11:35 am

LoveNotHate wrote:
ZenDen wrote:
Illegal immigrants have chosen to be illegal as part of their attempt at success

For many, it seems like that's why they're successful ....

The employer wants to skip out on paying: unemployment insurance, worker's comp, medicare, income taxes, mandatory health care (ACA) ...


And this ugly scene is supported by our government, which insures these poor people will remain illegal. Eventually, after learning English, getting the "lay of the land", getting in touch with relatives, and getting a good quality set of forged documents for themselves and family, they will move away from agriculture and into construction, lawn maintenance, nannies, house cleaning, etc.

And this is why the American public has to take-up-the-slack. Here we have free breakfast and lunch at our schools for children and parents during the school year and in summer as well.. Heck, why should corporations have to pay so their workers can eat? This S should end.

And if anyone believes bringing 10 to 20 million people into this country will not displace U.S. citizens from their jobs please post your evidence here:



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15 Jun 2016, 5:02 pm

thinking about the issue of gangs on a bigger scale doesn't denounce the small-scale. that's like saying i think adult-onset diabetics should stop taking insulin because they should be working on eating healthier and exercising...it doesn't make any sense.
and internal corruption and coups are not what i meant, because that's what we have a country have always done and that is the reason why so many immigrants come here anyway. obviously i know its idealistic to think about changing the entire structure of world politics and i was never intending to actually suggest a reasonable plan. rather, draw attention to the reasons why we are dealing with so much immigration and crime within immigrant populations.
i don't feel the need to contact a moderator and i'm not angry or feeling particularly picked on, however your reply does suit my point nicely because you've assumed i can't handle a debate by saying "perhaps robust discussion is not for you". i don't care if you don't want to admit that some of your debate tactics have been less than savory attempts to discredit me and i'm not going to apologize for pointing that out.