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NewTime
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11 Jul 2015, 11:50 am

I'd say we do. You can choose to get in a car. If so you made a choice. However if someone pushes you into that car, you were forced in. You didn't make a choice in that case.



The_Walrus
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11 Jul 2015, 2:23 pm

NewTime wrote:
I'd say we do. You can choose to get in a car. If so you made a choice. However if someone pushes you into that car, you were forced in. You didn't make a choice in that case.

What if somebody hypnotises you so that you'll always get in cars?

What if many years of experience condition you to never get into red cars?



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11 Jul 2015, 2:39 pm

This question has been done to death, but your premise misses the crux of the question.

Free will only exists a relative mind's eyes sense, as we are making the decisions in the frontal lobe. But what actually makes up that brain activity? Quite a lot goes into it, you can't say is a purely a free decision.

Some people think that that lack of free will is determinism. It isn't necessarily. We are all subject to chaos, and nature. There is an aspect of determinism through our behaviour evolution, by this is relative too.

From our current knowledge of neurology and nature I wonder why so much is made of it still.

It is all to do with revivalism. There is no absolute free will.

The question isn't really to do with taking responsibly for your actions or morality, becuase it each case you need to take responsibility as far as society might expect.



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11 Jul 2015, 8:38 pm

Does it matter?



0_equals_true
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12 Jul 2015, 5:53 am

blauSamstag wrote:
Does it matter?


If you are a relativist then no. If you have a vested interest in a position then obviously it would matter to you, though that is not reality.

I agree there are far better questions.



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12 Jul 2015, 12:02 pm

We have the hallucination that what's flowing through us originates with us.

Playing with that hallucination further we have two scenarios
1) We do exactly what we want to do
2) We can't do what we want to do so we do the second best thing, third best thing, etc. down the line.

What I have to leave aside with the above scenarios is awareness of options. Awareness of options or unawareness of options is one to one with the options themselves as you'll never exercise an option that you don't know you have.

The conversation on 'free will' is generally squash-rot because basic definition of what's being assessed is hardly ever agreed upon. Any basic ground-level topic is a debate on what happens within the hallucination of choice. That choice is a hallucination at all IMHO seems to clinch it for the win with determinism and I'm sorry but level three multiverses, four planes of the Kabbalistic/Qabalistic Tree of Life, quantum measurement problem, all the things Seth liked to say through Jane Roberts; these things influence the complexity of the mechanism but I can't see where they have any meaningful effect on the end result that originating will is a hallucination. What we're conscious of is always a set of reactions and those reactions come from environmental triggers, both internal and external, where the internal are as often as not memories of the external and where even flashes of divine illumination as one might understand them - again - came 'through' you but didn't originate from you. Even if time and cause/effect aren't inherently linear as many quantum physicists and science philosophers these days would indicate the state changes of the universe that our consciousness(es) process are linear - thus the kind of thing we're talking about is by definition a discussion on a linear experience. The quantum foam might be able to travel in 360 degrees of direction in time; our consciousness generally doesn't outside of extraordinary states which are way beyond my pay-grade to understand.


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techstepgenr8tion
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12 Jul 2015, 12:09 pm

Now the much more fascinating thing is that, knowing this, you can prioritize your processing quality/efficiency as a life objective. That kind of assessment of one's own consciousness is not entirely a work of esotericism (one can learn this as a professional, one can learn this as an athlete, etc.) but it's almost always there and it's a big component of what people quite often resort to calling 'alchemy'.

That of course holds fascinating promise but that, also, lol, is something you can either do something with because hearing it hits you like a life-changing epiphany, it might not spark at all, or it might even inspire a Bronx cheer - again not your fault nor to your personal credit because you don't have originating will! You're an increasingly complex chemical reaction that's been in process long before you were born, in fact long before any of the times you were born!

Now - you get a 'choice' to assume determinism goes into your processor and tells you to go limp and simply not participate, that lasts about as long as it takes to realize that it's not a gainful option. Thus better options are drawn into your system and game starts all over again.


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NewTime
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12 Jul 2015, 1:25 pm

We do have free will. You're never forced to get in a car unless someone pushes you into it.



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12 Jul 2015, 1:39 pm

I used to insist that we do have free will, mostly because I desperately wanted to be free from control by anything other than myself.

Then, I read Free Will, a book by Sam Harris, a neuroscientist who makes a compelling case, in that book, that free will is merely an illusion.

Now I'm not so certain, either way, and am awaiting further evidence on the subject before "hardening" my position.

Here's a link to this (inexpensive) book on Amazon, in case you'd like to check it out for yourself: http://www.amazon.com/Free-Will-Sam-Har ... =free+will


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NewTime
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12 Jul 2015, 1:47 pm

Free will is not an illusion. Space, time and number are not illusions either.



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12 Jul 2015, 2:18 pm

NewTime wrote:
We do have free will. You're never forced to get in a car unless someone pushes you into it.


This is not to do with this question.

You make a choice in your head, which is part 'self' part of the brain, however that doesn't answer what acts on self, what ultimately goes into the brain activity, and the evolution behind that.

Otherwise you could argue about people who have psychosis, brain damage, sleep walking, etc.

This isn't a question about morality or responsibility. That is not why this question was posed. It is a question about the broader reality of how how we are animate beings.

If you murder someone you are responsible for it irrespective of the free will question. Society understands the people make choices a decide and can be held to account for that. They consider that to be the person, and they will act according to their personality. You are your 'self' and that is what is held to account when compos mentis.

Strangely if to take the classic theological position, it requires determinism (gods will), and free will (personal responsibility) at the same time.



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12 Jul 2015, 2:42 pm

NewTime wrote:
We do have free will. You're never forced to get in a car unless someone pushes you into it.


techstepgenr8tion wrote:
We have the hallucination that what's flowing through us originates with us.

Playing with that hallucination further we have two scenarios
1) We do exactly what we want to do
2) We can't do what we want to do so we do the second best thing, third best thing, etc. down the line.


Again, this is the hallucination that you originate your thoughts or the material that your thoughts are made of.


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12 Jul 2015, 3:02 pm

There are a lot of things I choose not to do, especially if they're stupid and dangerous. But that's mostly because I was taught by someone, like my parents, or I learned it the hard way.

The hypnotism thing? I heard that contrary to all the movies and stuff where masses of people are forced to act against their will, hypnotism doesn't work that way. A person can't be hypnotized to murder their best friend if they have no will to do so. So why is it that many people are hypnotized into doing silly things, like impersonate Elvis, for entertainment?

Apparently the hypnotist makes the person think they're in a place or situation where it's okay for them to act silly and they won't be embarrassed. It's like they tune out the entire world while in their trance.
Fascinating. :chin:



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12 Jul 2015, 8:32 pm

Mentally- I think if someone has excellent self control they'll be able to have a free will because then nothing can force them into anything, they'll have their self control to be able to decide depending on themselves and not on what's pushing them.



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12 Jul 2015, 8:52 pm

Like 'LNH' states up there; Free Will is Relative;
AND relatively different in scope and
efficacy for each human being.

There was a time when I could not orchestrate and
control my thoughts in mind and body balance.

There was a time when I could not control my happiness.

There was a time when I could not control my body temperature.

There was a time when I could not control my overall body strength.

There was a time when the sensory environment is overwhelming.

There was time when the emotional environment is overwhelming

There was a time when the blood pressure does not synch properly
with heart rate as directed by the Central Nervous system.

There was a time when there is no control over brain wave activity.

There was a time when I cannot regulate my body temperature; sand
am even chilled in a breeze on a one-hundred degree day.

The list goes on and on;
AND ON.

And now, I am in control of all of this stuff with relative
free will; mileage varies from Yogi-Like control
to almost a lack of control in relative
free will in 'local human focus'.

I used bio-feedback first; and Now
I can change ALL Of this; JUST
with relative free will
of mind and body balance.


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12 Jul 2015, 9:05 pm

i enjoy my illusion of free will as i do as i am compelled by my genes and my past experience. from the second of the big bang, there was never a chance that things would be any different than they are. i choose to exercise. i choose to eat a mediterranean diet. i choose to be monogamous. i do these things because i was born with a basically happy constitution and pretty good intelligence that makes me want to live a long life and schooling that tells me how to accomplish that.