Why God can't be real

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I don't deny that it IS God's responsibility.

How do you know that either or both 1) The fall of man, which God knew would happen, wasn't part of God's plan, or 2) God doesn't view the perfection of creation as a work in progress? Is it possible that God's will cannot be achieved any other way?

Well it's worth mentioning that had adam not eaten the fruit, any of his kids could've.

That's the standard argument as I tried to point out. God's ways are not our ways, etc. Suffering is folded into his mysterious plan and is not resolved by free will or fruit. It's simply mysterious. A plan you don't know. Polytheism has it easier on this issue. The gods are indifferent or are of equal power and in competition. You shouldn't expect more and they are best appeased and avoided. It's not that your best friend screwed you to achieve a mysterious goal, it's that you don't have a best friend, or that he's not that powerful, or that his sister doesn't like you.

OK, but that still doesn't answer any of the questions. Is it possible God's will cannot be achieved any other way?

God is a mystery in the sense that we don't "see" God and that human understanding is limited. But in the same sense, pretty much EVERYTHING is a mystery, i.e. we've learned a lot of things yet we know we still have much to learn, so God is hardly special in that regard. Could it be that this "mystery" is really just people are satisfied in their faith alone and not compelled to give it much thought? Or could it even be that some people find the mysterious appealing? And could it be that for those who have given it some thought and don't find mystery appealing that God's ways really aren't that mysterious?

Your questions just restate my own comments. I don't speak to Yahweh and I didn't write the bible so I can't give you the "real" answer. Yes, there could be many possibilities.

I'm just noting that a straightforward answer to suffering isn't contained in the bible.

I'm an atheist and all, but surely one of the good things about being God is that no-one gets to decide whether or not you can be real?

What this says to me that if it's a mystery, it's only a mystery to you. I don't find it all that mysterious. I mean, there ARE things in the Bible I find mysterious, but drawing the conclusion that things are the way they and HAVE to be the way they are is a logical one, as reasonable as "cause-and-effect."


Exactly. There's no mystery here.


Depends on what you mean by "straightforward."

Were suffering and death according to the Bible a part of the original state of creation? No. Did God give man a choice between an eternal Edenic paradise or a physical life that could end in death? Yes. Was man created to be omniscient? No. Did man know better than God what creation was supposed to be? No, he couldn't have. Did man choose a different world than the one God created for him? Yes. Were/are death and suffering part of the reality man chose? Yes. For me, the straightforward bit is in the early chapters of Genesis.

And I haven't even touched the book of Job. But I was wondering something… You mentioned that the book of Job wasn't or isn't all that important to the Jews…so why even bring it up?

I agree that the book of Job doesn't provide a satisfying answer to the problem of suffering. But there's no indication from the book itself that it's supposed to. To boil it down, it basically says God made everything and ultimately our fate is in God's hands. That's really it. I think the testimony of Job's "friends" was to demonstrate that Job was largely innocent of wrongdoing that would warrant the experiences he suffered through. I mean, yeah, there's the fact that their refusal to validate Job or offer any real help shows they aren't very nice people. But they could provide no evidence of wrongdoing to convict him, at least in his own mind, that he was directly at fault. So…bad stuff happens to good people no matter what you do. And…wait for it…God is still in control. That's the book of Job in one paragraph.

The REAL problem of suffering isn't about how a good God can allow it to happen, since a part of our humanity requires we choose the world we live in and thus puts us in direct accountability for our own status quo. The real problem is who we choose to blame…ourselves for a world of our own making, or God giving us the choice? If we blame God, we are expressing dissatisfaction for the world and his will. Oh, and not that it isn't ok to be dissatisfied with suffering and an imperfect existence. I think that's only natural. It's a matter of blaming God for not working it out the way WE think it ought to be worked out rather than trusting God to make the very best with what we've given him. If God knows how it all turns out, then TODAY or RIGHT NOW is only a step towards ultimate perfection and reconciliation. There's no point in anyone freaking out over it. I accept today for what it is and for what God has made it; all I can do is all I can do. The rest simply isn't up to me. There's no reason to blame God, and even if there WAS a reason to blame God, there's no point. He's still God. Which leaves only man to carry the blame.

And even there you have a middle road. Why blame ANYBODY, man or God? We suffer because of what man did in the past, not because of what WE (everyone living right now) did, i.e. we didn't invent sin and weren't ourselves given a choice in the matter. It's not our fault and not God's either. The problem of suffering, in my view, is entirely an artificial, man-made problem designed to absolve man of any responsibility for the state of the world and place the blame where it doesn't belong.

It kinda reminds me of the move "Labyrinth." Sarah is prone to pointing out everything she thinks is unfair when she doesn't get her way or she is presented with a new challenge. When Hoggle, who is supposed to sell her out, refuses to help her get to the center of the labyrinth, she steals his jewels, his most prized possessions and really all he cares about. He responds by saying, "That's not fair!" to which she says, "No, it's NOT fair…but…that's the way it is." It's the first time she really begins to understand how much she has taken for granted, and her attitude completely changes from the point forward.

If there are many possible murder suspects and you havent solved the case you still have a mystery. And the quality of the suspects is another issue.



No, the story of the fruit is not that important. Original sin is not a big concept in Judaism. The Jews aren't even into eternal punishment. The religion is more about this life. The afterlife is vague and most rabbis consider punishment temporary. Twelve months tops and you're good. For all of the psychopathic rage of Yahweh in Judaism, he's not frying you for eternity and appears almost completely disinterested in the subject. Doesn't even come up in the Torah.



This reminds me of Bart Ehrman's bit where he talks about introducing biblical views of the problem of suffering to his New Testament students. He says the first problem is convincing his young students that there is real suffering in the world. They've never seen it. A white actress pouting about fairness in a movie is not really the full extent of suffering on Earth.

Ultimately you are saying many different things. First there is no problem. But the problem is caused by man. But not by "us". But then it's man's responsibility. It doesn't belong to Yahweh at all. Yet at the top of the page you say he is responsible. Then you say even if he is it doesn't matter, it's still our fault. There is no way I could reconcile all of the things you've said so I won't try.

Maybe you find it compelling. I don't.

Pain exist because we have pain receptors thus keeping us from further damage to the body. All living beings have free will and a mind of their own, by following a book of fairytales of a make believe invisible dumbledorf in the sky your giving up your free will by allowing yourself to be a thrall to a book of fairytales. God created the tree for the lulz he knew that they were going to eat the fruit if he didnt know then he wasn't omniscient but since he is hes a sick bastard i mean um mysterious! He wanted a reason to punish so thats why he did it so then people can die and he can control peoples lives through fear of the love me and know i exist or burn for eternity that is your only choice. The concept of humans being made from dirt and ribs was rediculous when we have fossilized evidence and genetic evidence that we shared a common ancestor with the chimpanzee.

Sounds like a fair description. Probably reality is a combination of the three alternatives you mentioned, all of those are strong points. However, I think that major religions as we have today (christianity, islam) are primitive and are dying, looking at greater scheme of things.


I don't think religion is a bad thing hypothetically and I think it could be done right. However looking at these things like morals and truth, wisdom through a religious prism is dangerous because it requires additional assumptions. When people are guided by feelings instead of mind.. I mean, it sounds much rather like a tool for mass control. It's just that this concept of religion feels a bit redundant.


I would love to partake in a religion done right! But what is right? It is nice that religion used to guide people through life and I think that was necessary and good, spiritually and culturally; but these days religion done right is a very hard concept to imagine. I am very fond of eastern philosophies. I think we should use our religiously hardwired brain to cultivate these wholesome feelings.


RI don't quite remember what I meant by mispracticed. Looks like your church really follows the best principles to do good. I guess what people mostly get from media are all the extremists and religious wars/hatred, never seeing what the actual local community is all about. Just imagining that there would be no religions so many conflicts in world could be solved (naively).

Harm by religion.. Well, discounting the islam, we could look for instance at abortions. Or other political issues, when religious groups are trying to influence the way of living based on their own set of morals. I suppose above all what makes me so anti-religion is their set in beliefs about things. How they try to affect education system and cultivate irrational theories like creationism. It is very hard to argue with religious people with reason. That is why I think religion holds us back. But done right, it could truly advance us spiritually and make for a happier society. But the right is probably unattainable.

OK…then why bring it up? (Just kidding)

Well, the issue with original sin is why if it is so unimportant that Jesus felt the need to discuss it with His followers and others? Contemporary Judaism is NOT Pharisaic Judaism as practiced at the time of the first Christians or earlier. I find it difficult to believe that the concept of eternal separation from God originated with Christ.

Just to clarify, I'm not well-versed in "original sin" concepts as traditionally understood by, say, Catholics. When I say "original sin," I'm just simply referring to how sin was introduced into the world through Adam, nothing more sophisticated than that.


Not an Ehrman fan. But you're right. I just had to sacrifice my entire residual income to get a bank account of the red. I'm not happy about it, and it means I have to give up a lot of plans I made for the rest of the year. We don't have as much food to eat as we used to. I have a personal supply of rice to last me a year, my kids aren't going hungry, we've got a lot of decisions to make…but by no means are we disease-ridden or our small children running around with distended bellies from malnutrition. People in the U.S. whine and cry about how we need more programs, how we have a poverty problem, but somehow all us "poor people" on food stamps usually still seem to have two cars in the garage and an obesity problem. We really have no clue what poverty or misery REALLY is despite how miserable we make ourselves sometimes…

And I love that particular scene in Labyrinth. I like Henson, David Bowie, AND Jennifer Connelly. Put all those together in a modern-day fable and you've got a great film.


I'm open to a number of possibilities. I don't claim to know everything, but I don't limit myself to a single perspective either.

Let me try again:

I'm not sure where you got "there is no problem." If there's no problem, there's no discussion.

So, one possibility places blame on man for the existence of suffering in the world. That would mean that everyone in the world at any given time shares equal responsibility for the state the world is in. I would say we're only responsible for what WE do, and I think it's obvious that often what mankind does contributes to global suffering more than alleviating it. So this perspective would include us with Adam in bearing the responsibility for the existence of suffering.

The second possibility is that we aren't responsible for the existence of suffering in the world at all…it existed before we were born, and the fault is with Adam and not us. We are merely born victims of the decision Adam made, and thus our responsibility is is only to our response to the status quo, whether we choose to change it or sustain it.

The third possibility is it's entirely God's fault. There is no question that God is responsible, and the reason why God is responsible is because 1) He created the universe knowing what would happen, 2) He placed the trees in the garden, knowing what man would choose, 3) He allowed the world to continue along that path.

If you're looking for who to blame, you have to decide whether you blame all of mankind, just Adam, or God. My second option would have neither US, i.e. all who are living now, nor God being blamed for sin and suffering existing in the world. It simply IS, and the only blame we can place on ourselves or each other is for what we DO, not what our ancestors DID. And you can't blame God because God left the decision for Adam to make, along with subsequent decisions that have been made by all people at all times since. If God is responsible for allowing evil to continue, he can only do so if he provide a way for man to escape the consequences of it.

Which is why I tend to rule out the third possibility. If man knew that suffering and death were natural consequences of the choices he made and insisted on making those choices, what follows is a direct result of man's behavior. I can't be responsible for what God chooses to do. I can only be responsible for myself. And if God already knows the best course for the world and mankind to take, it's out-of-place for me to blame God for anything, anyway.


Suit yourself.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5tRWl4b_hI[/youtube]If God is real maybe god is a girl that explains the mood swings and changing from being mean and hostile but then changing her mind to being loving and caring. I mean if God is real and loving I envision Gaia or a Giant Angel a beutiful celestial woman with Angelic wings and such. What a twist that would be! The Big bang =God or should I say Godess giving birth to the universe!

That you are uncertain implies mystery as generations of believers have claimed in times of suffering.

I think there is a disconnect here. I'm correcting the notion that suffering is an easy question that is solved by either free will or fruit. It will continue to be a troubling question for many believers. I personally don't have to resolve it. it's a problem for believers to deal with as best they can. Maybe some never even think about it.



The Pharisees are seen as the proto-rabbinic tradition. Even less interested in the concept are the Sadducees who it is claimed didn't even believe in the after life because the Torah doesn't talk about it. The concept of cookies and milk in the afterlife had not been invented at that time. The Jews did create a late arriving Messianic idea to make up for the failure of the line of David but it's not the Christian Messiah concept. Obviously.

And Jesus doesn't talk about original sin. That's a later theological invention or connection. The gospel writers think people are sinners but "Jesus" could easily mean an individual's choice to sin. He doesn't talk about eating magic fruit and Adam and Eve are only discussed in the context of marriage. Odd that the "eternal word of god" would leave that out if that's what he meant to say.

It's not something that Christians bring up, though. It's an apologetic issue.

I don't personally have to resolve it, either…stuff happens, so what? Deal with it and move on. God's still in charge no matter what happens. Probably some never think about it because it's resolved by something neither free will nor fruit, but rather faith.


I believe, as many Christians do, that revelation is an ongoing process. The concept of Sheol was not a new one by Christian times and there are references to the afterlife as far back as King David. Just because something isn't mentioned in one part of the Bible or another doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Yes, the Pharisees are proto-rabbinic, but even they were a an offshoot of an earlier tradition that had gotten lost. I don't believe that Torah was all that complicated. Many modern-day Jews regard Talmudic study and practice as an intellectual exercise, perhaps more so than a spiritual one, and while I recognize the value of that on its own, I also recognize that it became virtually a religion unto itself that in many ways missed the point of Torah. I don't believe that where Judaism went was where it was ever intended to be. Modern-day Judaism is NOT the religion of the Tanakh.

Actually, the Messianic idea is prefigured in Torah and isn't unique to the wisdom writings or the prophets.


I'm not really all that concerned about it either. "Original sin" in my view is simply an explanation of how sin and its consequences first came into the world. My concern is not with the how or why of it, and neither did Jesus show that concern. Jesus' concern was what to do about it. I'm not sure why you seem to think Jesus was supposed to talk about original sin. After all, Jewish and Christian though presupposes the existence of sin as part of the human condition.

Its time for Myth Busters! [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9izVu_TtAE[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9KlMWzKj4s[/youtube]