Should I start a reform movement within Islam?

Page 1 of 1 [ 11 posts ] 

MonsterGuy
Snowy Owl
Snowy Owl

User avatar

Joined: 7 Jul 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 169

14 May 2014, 11:33 am

To make it adjust to modern times, as Judaism did, or would I be viewed as heretical?



TallyMan
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Mar 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 40,061

14 May 2014, 11:59 am

Some would certainly regard you as heretical. It depend on how fundamentalist the views are of your own community. You would also likely need to have a clear vision for your reformed version of Islam and be able to communicate it clearly and with enthusiasm. Alternatively, you could just abandon the religion as a relic of the past as many others are doing.


_________________
I've left WP indefinitely.


AspieOtaku
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Feb 2012
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,051
Location: San Jose

14 May 2014, 12:27 pm

As long as it doesn't involve stoning people or martyring like making yourself a human bob-bomb i don't see the problem.


_________________
Your Aspie score is 193 of 200
Your neurotypical score is 40 of 200
You are very likely an aspie
No matter where I go I will always be a Gaijin even at home. Like Anime? https://kissanime.to/AnimeList


GGPViper
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Sep 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,880

14 May 2014, 12:37 pm

Islam possesses powerful internal mechanisms against reformation. I have selected 3 major (Sunni) ones here:

1. The most authoritative hadith:

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 3, Number 106:

Narrated by 'Ali

The Prophet said, "Do not tell a lie against me for whoever tells a lie against me (intentionally) then he will surely enter the Hell-fire."


This is the most authoritative Hadith in the Sunnah, as it is Mutawatir (massively transmitted). It is frequently invoked as a rejection of any deviation from Islamic Scripture.

2. The condemnation of Bi'dah (innovation):

Sahih Bukhari,Volume 8, Book 80, Number 747:

Narrated by 'Ali

We have no Book to recite except the Book of Allah (Qur'an) and this paper. Then 'Ali took out the paper, and behold ! There was written in it, legal verdicts about the retaliation for wounds, the ages of the camels (to be paid as Zakat or as blood money). In it was also written: 'Medina is a sanctuary from Air (mountain) to Thaur (mountain). So whoever innovates in it an heresy (something new in religion) or commits a crime in it or gives shelter to such an innovator, will incur the curse of Allah, the angels and all the people, and none of his compulsory or optional good deeds will be accepted on the Day of Resurrection. And whoever (a freed slave) takes as his master (i.e. be-friends) some people other than hi real masters without the permission of his real masters, will incur the curse of Allah, the angels and all the people, and none of his compulsory, or optional good deeds will be accepted on the Day of Resurrection. And the asylum granted by any Muslim is to be secured by all the Muslims, even if it is granted by one of the lowest social status among them; and whoever betrays a Muslim, in this respect will incur the curse of Allah, the angels, and all the people, and none of his Compulsory or optional good deeds will be accepted on the Day of Resurrection."


3. The penalty for deviating from Scripture:

Because the Sunnah - as demonstrated above - strongly condemns deviation from Scripture, a reformist may face the charge of apostasy. The penalty for apostasy in Islam is:

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:

Narrated by 'Ikrima

Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"


Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 84, Number 58 :

Narrated by Abu Burda

Abu Musa said, "I came to the Prophet along with two men (from the tribe) of Ash'ariyin, one on my right and the other on my left, while Allah's Apostle was brushing his teeth (with a Siwak), and both men asked him for some employment. The Prophet said, 'O Abu Musa (O 'Abdullah bin Qais!).' I said, 'By Him Who sent you with the Truth, these two men did not tell me what was in their hearts and I did not feel (realize) that they were seeking employment.' As if I were looking now at his Siwak being drawn to a corner under his lips, and he said, 'We never (or, we do not) appoint for our affairs anyone who seeks to be employed. But O Abu Musa! (or 'Abdullah bin Qais!) Go to Yemen.'" The Prophet then sent Mu'adh bin Jabal after him and when Mu'adh reached him, he spread out a cushion for him and requested him to get down (and sit on the cushion). Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, "Who is this (man)?" Abu Muisa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism." Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, "Then we discussed the night prayers and one of us said, 'I pray and sleep, and I hope that Allah will reward me for my sleep as well as for my prayers.'"


Sources:
http://www.sahih-bukhari.com/Pages/Bukhari_1_03.php
http://www.sahih-bukhari.com/Pages/Bukhari_8_80.php
http://www.sahih-bukhari.com/Pages/Bukhari_9_84.php

In other words: There is a reason why the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community moved their headquarters from Lahore, Pakistan to London, UK in 1084.

Anyway, sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words:
Image
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdus_Salam



thomas81
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 May 2012
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,147
Location: County Down, Northern Ireland

14 May 2014, 12:55 pm

If Quaranic literalism is the only barrier, I don't see it as insurmountable. The bible contains analogous verses to the same intent esp regarding homosexuals.


_________________
Being 'normal' is over rated.

My deviant art profile


Jacoby
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Age: 34
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,284
Location: Permanently banned by power tripping mods lol this forum is trash

14 May 2014, 1:00 pm

People have tried, most have been marked for death or killed. Islam doesn't take too kindly to reformist ideas.



thomas81
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 May 2012
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,147
Location: County Down, Northern Ireland

14 May 2014, 1:02 pm

Jacoby wrote:
People have tried, most have been marked for death or killed. Islam doesn't take too kindly to reformist ideas.


I see it more as a cultural than a theological problem.


_________________
Being 'normal' is over rated.

My deviant art profile


naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 70
Gender: Male
Posts: 35,189
Location: temperate zone

14 May 2014, 1:29 pm

Somebody should do that.

Be the Martin Luther of Islam, and start a reformation ( and or provoke a progressive counter reformation- not to alienate Catholics).

Appointing yourself as the one person to reform the whole Islamic world- is asking alot of yourself (Martin Luther himself didnt set out to start a Reformation- he took part in public speaking at an academic debate one day- things got out of hand- and suddenly all of European Christendom came apart at the seams).

But maybe you could get involved in your local community in some way- which would probably be the immigrant community in the western country ( USA? UK?) that ive gotten the impression that you live in now.

There is alot more conflict within both Christianity and Islam than between the two. An african coworker from Sierra Leone is of Muslim background. He talks about how "people in my country go to Pakistan and come back with crazy ideas....the Koran says 'dress modestly'. It doesnt say 'cover yourself head-to-toe'!" . This rise in fundamentalism is just as alien to muslims in some regions as it is to nonmuslims.

And the Pope certainly has alot of housecleaning to do ( ie pedaphile priests).

All of the major religions are at a crossroads right now.



TallyMan
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Mar 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 40,061

14 May 2014, 1:29 pm

Islam will likely eventually go the same way as Christianity is going... slipping into obsolescence and irrelevance in peoples' lives. People will call themselves "Muslim" but it will be in name only as many self professed Christians are. Never attending church/mosque or reading (or even owning their holy book) nor praying or even thinking about "their" religion.


_________________
I've left WP indefinitely.


JNathanK
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Oct 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,177

15 May 2014, 11:53 pm

Yah, if you want to spend the time and you really do ascribe to and understand the faith, in its cultural and historical context, by all means do this. To make all religions relevant, including islam, I would suggest extracting the core kernels of truth and wisdom from it that are recognizable by all cultures and people. This is the best way to make it more relevant to the world we now live in, which is more connected and cross-cultural than ever before.



Stannis
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Jan 2014
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,631

16 May 2014, 12:33 am

When I reflect on how efficient cointelpro strategies have been at squashing grass roots movements in the west, benevolent and otherwise, and the extent to which citizens are surveilled, I can only conclude that Islamic fundamentalism continues to flourish in europe because certain authorities want it to. Muslim fanatics sow fear of muslims, obstruct solidarity with the Islamic community, and provide a convenient target for political scapegoating. All very handy when you're trying to introduce policies which harm the public.