I'm quitting Atheism

Post Reply New Topic

It's not that I disagree with atheists over Evolution.
It's not that I disagree with atheists over the Bible/Criticism of the Bible.

Quite the contrary, I do agree with the atheists on both.

But I don't want to become part of the Atheist community. Actually, I think I'll start defending Christians and perhaps even the Jews and Muslims.

Why?

Because my history of meeting atheists is that they are disgusting, in the sense that they don't talk nice. They are rude.
They are everything, but polite. You don't normally talk like this to people: "You *** idiot, everything you say is BS, and stop wasting my time etc. etc. etc."

90 % of the atheists I've met, are rude this way. Galileo Galliei was said to have been so too. Although one can doubt wether he was an atheist, he did criticise the Church,
and was nearly sentenced to burn on the stake. Actually, I think Galileo Galilei deserved such a fate, if he had been as rude and unpolite as the atheists I've met.

Christians on the other hand, are way more polite and humble. So is my experience, at least.

It's not that I agree with the Christians, at all. It's just easier to have a conversation with someone, who don't call you a BS.

I can handle a stubborn religious nut who, when confronted with the facts of life, says "God works in mysterious ways", but I don't want to be called a BS, with
a single brain cell.

Last edited by thinkinginpictures on 11 Jun 2014, 4:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

Buzz Aldrin really gets on my goat, so I'm gonna join the flat earth society .

Last edited by Stannis on 11 Jun 2014, 4:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

There's a huge difference between defending religion, and actually joining a religious community.
I'm not part of any community.

South Park parodies atheists well, for many it has filled the void of religion. I am not religious, I was not raised that way and it's not something I give much thought or ponder over.

There are, of course, atheists who are not rude. Some of them are, indeed, polite and asks questions in a manner that makes you re-think your own ideas.
It's the socratic way of doing it. I'd want more atheist to take that approach, instead of picking on me.

Thinking in pictures. It is often difficult to differentiate between people who sincerely want to find out what atheist positions are, and who want to conduct in honest debate, from trolls and evangelists. If they thought you were the former, then they might have acted otherwise.

Last edited by Stannis on 11 Jun 2014, 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I think the idea of an "atheist community" is a bit silly, and such a thing is only likely to attract silly people who just want to shoot down religion.

Most atheists don't join such communities - I'd guess, though I'm not sure, that normal atheists more likely to join communities of secularists, humanists, or skeptics, and even more likely to just quietly go about their lives.

I agree with you that basic day-to-day politeness is probably easier for the religious, who have a greater sense of purpose to motivate them. My anecdotal experiences certainly coincide with that, all the most polite and friendly people I know are religious. However, religious people fail on two accounts: firstly, their moral system is incapable of telling them how to act in a scenario not envisioned by the people who wrote their books, and secondly, they are often unable to challenge the morality of those laws, even the ones that are obviously immoral. They're stuck in Kohlberg's third stage of moral development, and often see Stages 4-6 as being immoral in themselves.

I think the perfect person would have the day-to-day kindness of a religious person, but also the moral integrity of a John Stuart Mill or Peter Singer.

Some atheists are very touchy. I have to imagine that some of them are former Christians. They feel deluded and thus angry. This is the only way I can comprehend it.

I went to that website you mentioned in the other thread. What a joke. It might as well be called an atheist support forum. You could make the most innocuous post ever but if you question their beliefs, you will be viciously attacked. Such hypocrisy.

You'll notice that atheists who were not brought up religious are generally less angry. They just don't hold such a grudge against religion and they don't feel the need to angrily defend their beliefs. You have to watch out for the recently converted. They tend to overcompensate.

You can still be an atheist. Just don't participate in online forums that revolve around atheism. Atheism is a negative position (as in the absence of a belief., not as in bad). The lack of belief is so strong and central to their identity (in some atheists) that they begin to mimic the traits of the fundamentalists.

"Do to others as you would have them do to you"- that can be applied to almost every situation, with a little thoughtfulness or compassion. Thinking of being a Christian as strictly about obeying a bunch of rules, no matter how inappropriate in a given situation, is a very immature kind of faith (though I can see how someone with Asperger's might understand Christianity as primarily being about following rules or morality).

Religion is beneficial because it helps a person deal with existential crises such as death or suffering. There's a universal tendency in human beings to be negative thinkers, no matter how burdensome this becomes In the end (as it helped our ancestors survive), and this is even worse for people with Asperger'- induced ruminations. Religions such as Christianity provide signs or symbols of hope and direction in life, something that is very important to offset the negativity that our brains are hardwired to produce.

Somebody who is an Aspie and religious is going to have to develop their own spirituality, even if they go to a church. They'll have to understand God on their own terms. Neurotypicals tend to get different things out of religion than people with Asperger's. Temple Grandin is a good example, she is Episcopalian, but she has to approach God on her own terms - primarily intellectually but also aesthetically through music and ritual, far different from a lot of other Episcopalians who tend to understand God working through an emotional relationship experienced in a community.

Doesn't Kohlberg have a hypothetical 7th stage that has something to do with religion?

I know people - largely the same people I was extolling for their day to day politeness - who have ended friendships when the other person has come out of the closet. People who are otherwise paradigms of virtue, kind, compassionate and friendly, find it impossible to continue to like someone once they find that they are attracted to members of their own sex. I find it hard to find any explanation for this other than being firmly rooted in bad deontology.

For every "do unto others as you would have them do to you", there's a "trust the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding" (Proverbs 3:5).

That's more of an expansion on my second point, actually... OK, how about this: what constitutes "others"? Do we need to respect animals? What about those in the advanced stages of dementia, or the unborn?

Is genetic engineering moral? What about cloning, or sperm donation?

These are issues that the Israelites did not need to consider, but our society does need to consider. Sure, some of the broader verses of the Bible can be used, as can verses about related-but-separate issues, or even verses that are not about morality... but there are so many verses, and so many different interpretations, that different positions can be (and are) justified by scripture.

Those are just militant atheists, usually previously churchians who got tired of baloney and not necessarily having their atheism rooted in logic but more in emotion. I'm not an atheist, but there are plenty of nicer atheists than the ones who make jerks of themselves in public. Grounding one's beliefs in emotions tends to do that.

I'm an atheist, but that's just because I don't believe in the existance of a god. That's all there is to it. The ones who try to turn it into a religion, well they're just silly. Part of the reason I'm an atheist is because I'm irreligious, and the reason why I'm irreligious is because I don't like religion and don't see the point of it. I don't care what other people practice, just as long as I'm allowed to do my thing.

The point is, you don't have to join a religion if you don't like the "atheist community". I don't like the "atheist community" either, so I don't participate in it, even though I am in fact technically an atheist. I mean, go ahead if you want to, and if it feels right, but I'm just saying.

I'm not a "Bible only" type of Christian- I tend to go to Episcopalian or Lutheran churches. We have theologians and bishops that help us understand the Bible- people can privately read the Bible but we discern corporately how we are going to respond to ethical issues. Theology draws on reason and Christian tradition to help us to understand the themes of Scriptures, so yeah, we can as Christians, with God's help, reach some possible answers to those questions.

Respecting animals and non-human life is definitely part of the Jewish and Christian tradition. One of the laws God gave to Noah was not to eat an animal while it is still alive. Jews have traditionally interpreted that more broadly to expressing a concern against animal cruelty. However, animals do not have the worth of a human being, because only human beings are created in the image of God, therefore animals can be used instrumentally (for instance, for medical research or for food). However, cruelty is still something that should be avoided. For your question about the unborn and elders that are demented, Christians have mostly agreed that abortion and euthanasia are wrong and sinful, though in certain circumstances life-preserving medical treatments may be ended. Human life is a gift from God, even when it involves suffering or is burdensome to others, and deliberately ending a human life for the sake of sparing oneself pain or burden is a sin.

It was Christians who passed laws in various states forbidding the teaching of the Theory of Evolution in public schools.
It is Christians who often discriminate against Atheists just because they will not believe and accept the superstition of the Christians.

Considering how Atheists are given short shrift in public discourse and politics by the Believers it is not surprising they are a tad hostile and touchy. Do you really expect an atheist to Turn The Other Cheek?

ruveyn

So, in short, you are blaming the whole of one particular group of people for the actions of a minority within that group? Your argument, while stating 'fact,' is primarily Pathos-based. That's like saying all Germans are Nazis, or everyone here on WP is just an Elliot Roger waiting to snap. I don't think that is fair to the discussion at hand, which by and large has agreed that there are spiteful people on both sides of this Religion/Atheism line humans have divided themselves with.

I like to see Proverbs 3:5 as a reminder that we are flawed; our understanding of the world is inherently limited by our perspective. And over the last 2000 years- heck, the last 100 years- humanity has expanded our understanding of the world and the laws that hold it in place. At the same time, as many have commented, people are capable of holding such a powerful bias that it interferes and warps our perspective of the world and those around us. I mean, something as silly as skin tone caused us to accept that there are different 'races' of humanity, when in reality humans are approx. 99.7% identical at the genetic level.

We, as a species, can be very quick to judge and spite others who are not like ourselves, think differently than we do, are attracted to others in 'deviant' ways...it's part of our history. It's driven genocides and elections with the same weight. So rather than lean on what we accept and what we know...you can step back, acknowledge that you are biased, and shift your perspective from what you want to see or feel to seeing and feeling what simply be. For some, that's atheism; that we're three dimensional beings in a three dimensional reality, brains piloting bodies. For others, it's religion; that we are multi-dimensional beings rooted in three dimensions, and between all the flesh and nerves is a subtle little soul that will, one day, be released from its coil.

But these are just the words of a middle class caucasian Catholic, so take them with some salt. My perspective from this bit of dust flying through the universe is inherently small-minded, after all.

Last edited by Zephyo on 11 Jun 2014, 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.