Opinions on Marcus Auerelius and Stoicism

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01 Jul 2014, 4:46 pm

I have recently read Meditations and found the principles and philosophy to be highly compelling. What are your thoughts on the Stoicism school of philosophy and how it may or may not be used in practice?

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GoonSquad
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03 Jul 2014, 9:43 am

I've practiced Stoicism all my life, but I only discovered it about 4 or 5 years ago while reading primary sources for a Roman history class.

It's probably the most persistently influential of all the classical philosophies (it is the basis of modern CBT), despite the fact that most people have an extremely distorted understanding of it.

If you liked Meditations you should check out The Inner Citadel by Pierre Hadot.
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3303 ... er_Citadel

Quote:

Written by the Roman emperor for his own private guidance and self-admonition, the Meditations set forth principles for living a good and just life. Hadot probes Marcus Aurelius's guidelines and convictions and discerns the hitherto unperceived conceptual system that grounds them. Abundantly quoting the Meditations to illustrate his analysis, the author allows Marcus Aurelius to speak directly to the reader. And Hadot unfolds for us the philosophical context of the Meditations, commenting on the philosophers Marcus Aurelius read and giving special attention to the teachings of Epictetus, whose disciple he was.

Also Irvine's A Guide to the Good Life: The Ancient Art of Stoic Joy is really good too. It, along with Hadot's book, will teach you how to actually practice Stoicism.
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/5617 ... -good-life

Quote:

In A Guide to the Good Life, Irvine offers a refreshing presentation of Stoicism, showing how this ancient philosophy can still direct us toward a better life. Using the psychological insights and the practical techniques of the Stoics, Irvine offers a roadmap for anyone seeking to avoid the feelings of chronic dissatisfaction that plague so many of us. Irvine looks at various Stoic techniques for attaining tranquility and shows how to put these techniques to work in our own life. As he does so, he describes his own experiences practicing Stoicism and offers valuable first-hand advice for anyone wishing to live better by following in the footsteps of these ancient philosophers. Readers learn how to minimize worry, how to let go of the past and focus our efforts on the things we can control, and how to deal with insults, grief, old age, and the distracting temptations of fame and fortune. We learn from Marcus Aurelius the importance of prizing only things of true value, and from Epictetus we learn how to be more content with what we have.

Don't forget Seneca or Epictetus!

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03 Jul 2014, 10:29 am

I found Aurelius' work in the library and bought a copy myself. I think he had a lot of relevant and interesting thoughts and ideas, even liberating to quite an extent.

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kraftiekortie
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03 Jul 2014, 10:31 am

I wouldn't call myself a stoic--but I respect Stoicism in most of its forms.

I'm not a believer in ascetic sacrifice, though.

Last edited by kraftiekortie on 03 Jul 2014, 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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03 Jul 2014, 12:12 pm

Stoics are not ascetics.

They do practice a certain 'voluntary discomfort' but only as an exercise to strengthen the will. Also, it actually enhances general enjoyment and helps to break the hedonic cycle that many people are enslaved to.

?Remember that very little is needed to make a happy life.?
― Marcus Aurelius

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03 Jul 2014, 5:55 pm

Interesting I was reading about him for the first time yesterday, his worldview (from the little i have read) seems far more sensible than his contemporary christians who, unfortunately, were to be the ultimate victors in this area of philosophical/religious turmoil.

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Stoek
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03 Jul 2014, 11:02 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:

I think that's an unfair assumption, as it seems much of the church is based around stoic ideals.

The catholic church, ironically suffers from a stoic attitude when it comes to the level of corruption of the catholic church. Many good priests are unable to deal with the bads by their in ability to be overly idealistic.

Personally Im starting to embrace an odd mixture of stoicism and hedonism. I appreciate stoic methods but I think their visions of virtues is a bit outdated.

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04 Jul 2014, 6:17 am

Stoek wrote:

DentArthurDent wrote:

I think that's an unfair assumption, as it seems much of the church is based around stoic ideals.

The catholic church, ironically suffers from a stoic attitude when it comes to the level of corruption of the catholic church. Many good priests are unable to deal with the bads by their in ability to be overly idealistic.

Personally Im starting to embrace an odd mixture of stoicism and hedonism. I appreciate stoic methods but I think their visions of virtues is a bit outdated.

That would make you an Epicurean.

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DentArthurDent
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04 Jul 2014, 6:36 am

Stoek wrote:

DentArthurDent wrote:

I think that's an unfair assumption, as it seems much of the church is based around stoic ideals.

This is an area where I am informing myself as I am posting, but as I understand it the church sees God as outside nature, beyond time and space, where as stoicism sees the universe and god as one and the same. So I don't really see how you come to your conclusion, also the early christians literally demonised stoicism and all other forms of pagan philosophy.

From the little I have read it would also appear that Aurelius expanded his understanding beyond normal Stoic philosophy

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04 Jul 2014, 8:01 am

DentArthurDent wrote:

This is an area where I am informing myself as I am posting, but as I understand it the church sees God as outside nature, beyond time and space, where as stoicism sees the universe and god as one and the same. So I don't really see how you come to your conclusion, also the early christians literally demonised stoicism and all other forms of pagan philosophy.

From the little I have read it would also appear that Aurelius expanded his understanding beyond normal Stoic philosophy

At a basic level Stoics are deists and/or pantheists. Stoics are also soft determinists and they see God as the force that orders the universe.

Beyond that, some Stoics see God as a conscious entity. Some see God as unconscious and manifest in the laws of nature only.

Seneca?s concept of God is as the embodiment of reason and benevolence:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/seneca/#God

Quote:

God is completely soul (animus) and reason (ratio) (1.14), or, as Seneca puts it in Letter 65.12, ?reason in action? (ratio faciens). (iii) Like earlier Stoics, Seneca emphasizes that God (?Jupiter?) can be referred to by many names: fate, the cause of causes (causa causarum), providence, nature, universe (NQ 2.45.2).
?
It is through the example of God's goodness that Seneca aims to explain why giving should really not be done with a view to one's own advantage: there is no advantage that God could possibly gain from us, and yet God benefits all of us (4.3.3). Indeed, God is the ultimate source of benefits; as cause of all causes, God is also the cause of everything that is good for us, and that includes the sun, the seasons, and so on. This connects to the point that God is referred to by many names. Seneca envisages the objection that these gifts do not come from God, but from nature; but whoever makes this objection fails to understand that nature is but another name for God (4.7.1).

Seneca was also reviered by early Christians:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seneca_the ... nist_saint

Quote:

The early Christian Church was very favorably disposed towards Seneca and his writings, and the church leader Tertullian called him "our Seneca".[14]
Medieval writers and works (such as the Golden Legend, which erroneously has Nero as a witness to his suicide) believed Seneca had been converted to the Christian faith by Saint Paul, and early humanists regarded his fatal bath as a kind of disguised baptism.

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Sherlock03
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05 Jul 2014, 9:47 pm

GoonSquad wrote:

Quote:

Don't forget Seneca or Epictetus!

The Inner Citadel is the next book on my reading list.

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