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Humanaut
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05 Jan 2015, 7:20 pm

tomato wrote:
...people such as you seem to lack the ability to abstract away from their conditioned concepts. In this case the concepts offense and defense.

The willingness to preserve sanity is too strong. Save valid concepts. Delete invalid concepts.



tomato
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05 Jan 2015, 7:26 pm

Humanaut wrote:
tomato wrote:
...people such as you seem to lack the ability to abstract away from their conditioned concepts. In this case the concepts offense and defense.

The willingness to preserve sanity is too strong.

Exactly, and that's why madness and creativity are two sides of the same coin.



Humanaut
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05 Jan 2015, 7:39 pm

Could you give some examples?



tomato
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05 Jan 2015, 7:49 pm

Humanaut wrote:
Could you give some examples?

examples of what?



Humanaut
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05 Jan 2015, 7:58 pm

Creative madmen.



tomato
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05 Jan 2015, 8:31 pm

Humanaut wrote:
Creative madmen.

Here are some: http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-tortured-artists.php



Syd
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05 Jan 2015, 8:39 pm

Madness is not a prerequisite for creativity, and the vast majority of the mentally ill are not geniuses.



olympiadis
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05 Jan 2015, 9:26 pm

I just now saw this, but I understand exactly what you are saying here.
It's about memetics, a subject that I study.
It's ideas, which are algorithms, which can be represented by mathematical equations.
An equation (idea) becomes dominant by being recursive in nature, and thus spreading itself in endless iterations at every level of scale. Fractal.

What we have is energy flowing through systems, but always must flow in both directions, - equal and opposite.
Thus a perpetual software/mathematical war.

It is extremely hard for a human to see and understand a situation like this because of being embedded within the structure.

Goethe was able to come to similar conclusions and directly compared the energy exchanges during chemical reactions to the macro scale of human exchanges.


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tomato
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06 Jan 2015, 5:00 am

Syd wrote:
Madness is not a prerequisite for creativity

There are those who have that opinion, and those who argue that madness and creativity are two sides of the same coin due to the meaning of the concepts in themselves.

Quote:
and the vast majority of the mentally ill are not geniuses.
That's probably true. But my guess is that in order to be labelled genius you need to have high intelligence, which is related to creativity but not necessarily synonymous I'd guess. Although there are different kinds of intelligence of course. You can have high machine intelligence without being particularly creative. It also seems that in some cases that madness that goes hand in hand with creativity results in lower machine intelligence.



naturalplastic
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06 Jan 2015, 5:38 am

olympiadis wrote:
I just now saw this, but I understand exactly what you are saying here.
It's about memetics, a subject that I study.
It's ideas, which are algorithms, which can be represented by mathematical equations.
An equation (idea) becomes dominant by being recursive in nature, and thus spreading itself in endless iterations at every level of scale. Fractal.

What we have is energy flowing through systems, but always must flow in both directions, - equal and opposite.
Thus a perpetual software/mathematical war.

It is extremely hard for a human to see and understand a situation like this because of being embedded within the structure.

Goethe was able to come to similar conclusions and directly compared the energy exchanges during chemical reactions to the macro scale of human exchanges.


Are you aware of the fact that in this post you have managed to speak with out actually saying anything?



Last edited by naturalplastic on 06 Jan 2015, 5:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

Humanaut
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06 Jan 2015, 5:45 am

It could more often than not, but not always, be the opposite of madness, as in the words of Don McLean:

Now I think I know what you tried to say to me
How you suffered for your sanity
How you tried to set them free
They would not listen, they're not listening still
Perhaps they never will




tomato
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06 Jan 2015, 6:15 am

olympiadis wrote:
I just now saw this, but I understand exactly what you are saying here.
It's about memetics, a subject that I study.
It's ideas, which are algorithms, which can be represented by mathematical equations.
An equation (idea) becomes dominant by being recursive in nature, and thus spreading itself in endless iterations at every level of scale. Fractal.

What we have is energy flowing through systems, but always must flow in both directions, - equal and opposite.
Thus a perpetual software/mathematical war.

It is extremely hard for a human to see and understand a situation like this because of being embedded within the structure.

Goethe was able to come to similar conclusions and directly compared the energy exchanges during chemical reactions to the macro scale of human exchanges.
Thanks. Interesting.



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06 Jan 2015, 6:28 am

Humanaut wrote:
It could more often than not, but not always, be the opposite of madness, as in the words of Don McLean:

Now I think I know what you tried to say to me
How you suffered for your sanity
How you tried to set them free
They would not listen, they're not listening still
Perhaps they never will


That is a subject that interests me. What is sanity, etc. I have the book The Sane Society by Erich Fromm, but I haven't finished it. In most cases sanity is a word like any other, and as such defined by convention. But to quote Einstein:

Quote:
What is right is not always popular and what is popular is not always right.


Or a pop culture character:

Quote:
There's a fine line between 'wrong' and 'visionary.' Unfortunately, you have to be a visionary to see it.


This is also something that interests me in relation to dialectics, such as that of Hegel and Marx. I recently ordered a book entitled Dialectic of Enlightenment by Max Horkheimer and Theodor W. Adorno. It should arrive in the mail any day. This is also something that branches out into other things that interest me. Here's a very interesting interview where they talk about "metoids", and about "very intelligent people believing in stupid things" or whatever they said. Jonathan Bowden also has some interesting talks that are related, of which I already posted one earlier in the thread.

http://www.redicecreations.com/radio/2014/12/RIR-141205.php



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06 Jan 2015, 6:35 am

As for dialectics, that relates to what I wrote about slavery, colonialism, imperialism and evolution early in the thread. I think that has more relevance to the topic than one might think at first glance.



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06 Jan 2015, 11:08 am

Copied from my other recent thread:

Quote:
In a world that is extremely interconnected, which is the consequence of advanced technology, the line between offense and defense becomes very blurred, perhaps even meaningless. I can illustrate it with something from biology, which I'm not an expert in either. A cell living in water has a cell membrane, and the membrane is full of little tubes, pumps, connecting the outside of the cell with the inside. The pumps in the cell membrane have to counter the effect of osmosis to prevent the cell membrane and the cell at large from being damaged.

Quote:
Osmosis is the spontaneous net movement of solvent molecules through a partially permeable membrane into a region of higher solute concentration, in the direction that tends to equalize the solute concentrations on the two sides.


You can see the solvent particles as opposing forces in war. If the pressure is constantly rising inside the cell the solvent particle concentration is increasing, there is a net influx of solvent particles from the outside into the cell, because the cell can't pump out particles as efficiently as they are being pushed in. The cell will explode.

If I'm not mistaken there is movement of particles through the membrane even when the pressure is equal on the inside and the outside, due to diffusion.

So it works similar to a reversible chemical reaction.

Now I would like to use the cell and the movement of particles through the cell membrane as an analogy for Nazism. Considering that the division between offense and defense is blurred to the point of virtual meaninglessness, any entity with power over another has to use all kinds of subversion tactics to remain in power. This might include twisting the minds of the subjugated population in various ways, shaping their ideas and world view etc. You influence the content of children's books and movies, what books are on the shelves of the public library, what magazines are on the shelves of the corner store etc. And if the people are unable to see through the deception due to lacking intelligence, they'll follow it until they begin to suffer from it, and that suffering will make them see through the deception. It can even be argued that until someone has the ability to see the truth of something, they will reject it and oppose it by their own force no matter how much you present it to them. And at one point you might not have any choice but to let them do what they decide to do based on their own desire, even though you know that they will suffer. You can only give them a message so many times before you have to hide if they keep spitting you in the face and stomping on your papers, following their own desire regardless of what you say. So you make them believe that they themselves are in control and that they're doing the right thing. If a child wants to touch the stove and keeps screaming constantly and nothing you say or do makes them change their mind, you might let them touch the stove once to learn.