Been thinking about what happened in France...

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And of course I condemn terrorism and such tactics like most everyone else but I have to ask this question...

Is it really that intelligent to build your entire life around being insulting and cruel on a constant basis?

Of course they have the right to be that way, all of us do, it's protected in our fundamental freedoms associated with our western heritage.

My only question is, how intelligent is it to choose to be that way all the time? It seems like it won't get you that far.


I cast the same jaundiced eye at Islam that I do Judaism and Christianity and yes I will criticize all three for whatever I personally disagree with, however, I see no point in poking fun of them on a constant basis in a satirical way because I know there's no point. I would rather just criticize the parts I don't like and leave it at that.

Last edited by ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo on 08 Jan 2015, 10:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

Insults and cruelty seem to work just fine for drill instructors, dominatrixes, personal trainers, coaches, and some comedians.

Satire is a great literary tradition. It puts things in perspective like no other commentary could, as it appeals to that part of our psyches that most "civilized" people would like to keep hidden from others. As long as satire is an accepted part of any culture, even when it lampoons religious and political leadership, you'll know that people are still free to think for themselves and express themselves as they see fit.

Satire is a sign that people are free.

Some satire but we all know no one likes it on a constant basis. Most personal trainers are not cruel, they might try to motivate but they don't berate people by calling them names and making them feel like total crap. I have no problem with occasional lampoons but when someone bills themselves as an equal opportunity offender, I just see that as not being a positive step for them and sorta just setting themselves up for failure. Just think about it. It's just...negative.

Let's take a look at the real world and say someone wants to be funny and decides to pick on someone else and when that person reaches the breaking point and gets upset, the person doing the picking says, "it's my right to pick on you and make you feel bad," which is true however, it won't stop the one that got picked on from holding it against the guy, having bad feelings toward him, not wanting to be a friend or ever sympathetic towards him. Is the right to this freedom really worth making someone feel so bad they become unsympathetic and maybe even hostile? Yes, you have freedoms but there are consequences to that freedom, stuff you have to live with, if you hurt people. You can hurt people with your freedom, it's true, but it's not in your best interest. Get what I am saying?

The life of the victims was NOT one of unrelenting cruelty.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30710545

Note how careful one of the people you are smearing is to point out that the firebombing of his office was the work of a few idiots and not representative of Muslims in general...
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-15555022

The people who were killed at Hebdo were really great people, not what you describe at all. You should learn something about them before "blaming the victim."

Beyond that, you say it may not be successful, etc, but it quite obviously was. These cartoonists had long, successful careers and their political and social comments were a part of the editorial voice of the French press--not a minor acheivement. They made good livings and they contributed to public life by mocking idiotic ideas of all persuasions, races and ideologies.

The very fact that the scum who attacked their offices yesterday knew about their cartoons was a sign that what they did with their pencils and pens had more impact than most. They did well and their deaths help to illustrate how ghastly the viewpoint of their murderers really is.

Perhaps life would be easier and safer if we all accepted the inevitable and paid the Jizya, but to hell with that--and to hell with the salafi/takfiri/jihadi morons and their delicate sensibilities.

I have seen some of their work and it's really bad. But they do have the right to publish that under freedom of info or freedom of speech/press.

However, there is another part of that, and that is to publish responsibly.

I have seen other cartoons in response to this attack criticizing terrorists in particular, all more tasteful than this magazine while getting the point across.

Their magazine, Charlie Hebdo, is so extreme, they didn't have a lot of subscribers anyway and now there's this push to get people to buy their magazine because of this even though, apparently, not a lot of people liked it in the first place or they would have bought it before this happened. If you didn't like it then, you shouldn't buy it just because of this.


One of the terrorists, the French released from prison after he was convicted of terrorism so that was one they let slip through their fingers, then surprise, he goes on to more terrorist acts and if they let him go again, he will go straight into the bosom of Islam and start commanding more terrorist acts from there.

Last edited by ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo on 08 Jan 2015, 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Je suis Charlie.

I say that without reservation or qualification. I say that knowing full well that much of what was published in Charlie Hebdo was offensive to me and to others.

I believe to my core that Charlie Hebdo was free to be as offensive as they wanted. I believe that the WBC must be free to picket. I believe that the KKK must be free to public and say whatever it wants. "I may not believe in what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." This must be the meaning of free expression if free expression is to mean anything at all.

Are there limits to free expression? Of course. Defamation, fraud, copyright and incitement are all areas where we properly choose to put penalties on expression that is intended to interfere with the rights of others. But insult is not the same as defamation, and we erode that line at our peril.

The proper response to the verbal bully is not to muzzle him. It is to pick up a megaphone and refute him.

Okay then it's okay to harass people constantly and bully them? Because that's just freedom of speech and this magazine is pretty much nothing but that only they are poking fun at public figures and religion but it's the same thing. If someone published a magazine about me that was like that I would be like, really upset, and to know it's just freedom of speech? What about my freedom to peace of mind and not be harassed?

The question is, where do you draw the line and when is enough enough?

You know they made fun of all religions, just not Islam right?

It's strange when only Islamic radicals attack people for criticizing their religion or posting an image of their supposed prophet. I've yet to hear of anyone else of any other religion attacking this magazine and threatening others like members of Islam do.

They want the world to live by their religion and their laws. BS I say, we do not give into intimidation.

"I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
-Voltaire (who many considered offensive because he also wrote satire to criticize)

It isn't harrassing and bullying to write satirical cartoons about a religion.

Most people won't buy it is all I am saying, and they have not. I would encourage them not to buy it now. If you didn't like it enough to buy it then, why buy it now?

There's ways of satirizing intelligently then there's this stuff. It's just not good any level and most people thought that. It only appealed to a small demographic.

Of course that's no excuse to do what these people did. The best way to deal with stuff like this is ignore it and people were doing that but now they will pay attention to it like never before when it isn't worthy of it. It's like paying attention to trolls on the internet, you know? Yes, it's that bad. Just go look at what Charlie Hebdo publishes. What astonishes me is people complain about internet trolls then they support this and it's practically the same thing. I don't get it. I really don't.

I am far from being a supporter of Islam but I am definitely NOT a supporter of Charlie Hebdo, either.

You do have a point, but alas that's not the issue ...

You are talking about the quality of Charlie Hebdo, but that is not what was attacked. It was the fact they weren't allowed to speak out by the attackers. Freedom of speech is the issue ... and that was what Voltaire was talking about.

The issue isn't freedom of speech as much as it is what that freedom truly means and how we can all be free. One person's freedom is another's prison so you have to figure out how to use your freedoms wisely. You cannot yell fire in a crowded theater for instance. You must be conscientious about what it really means.


Take a look at the internet. Do you really like someone who insults you all the time and has no respect for you, even though, technically, they have the right to do that? But will you like them if they will? Do you willingly take their abuse without a word? Next time you come across an internet bully that only wants to insult you online so others will see the insults and you will be humiliated, what will you do? If you truly believe speech is free, you won't complain or anything, will you?

I don't believe people think all speech is truly free. Like, if someone insults us, we want to insult them back, or worse. That's the price we put on this freedom. Most people will not idly sit by and be degraded without fighting back.

People who stretch freedom of speech to its legal boundaries ensure the rest of 'US' have plenty of wiggle room to get 'our' points of views across.

There is no freedom as valuable as freedom of speech/expression, and truly no matter how offensive these folks rhetoric is they are true freedom fighters, at CORE, of what has made humans as free, as they have the option to be today, in now.

And on top of that, there is no doubt in my mind, at least, that if the real Jesus and Muhammad could come again in flesh and blood life they would have a laugh and a satisfying grin IN SARCASM AGAINST the folks who made them into something more than just humble 'common' enlightened and awakening human beings WANTING to help others, as is, as all they were, or less.

Human bliss is not something that can be withheld from others, as it must be shared, as Universal Law of Mother Nature and/or Human nature, if one wills.

The precedent of that is clear to see for those who have 'eyes' and 'ears' to see throughout recorded history, but without a way to understand deeper metaphors of human language, it is simply next to impossible to see through the literal code of metaphorical truths of human beings, when allowed to express those opinions that way fully.

Not all WILL 'see' those truths but it seems that is standard procedure of Mother Nature True aka GOD, at least to me, in my opinion, FULLY EXPRESSED HERE.

Do you realize what you are arguing in favor of? You are saying that people shouldn't say things (or draw things) that make other people angry because sometimes angry people kill you. Your solution to the problem of "angry people might kill you" is "so don't make them angry".

Problem: some people are driven to a homicidal rage when they hear things that make them angry

Solution: never say anything that would make them angry ??????

How about: don't be cowed by homicidal ragers. Stand up for your right to speak without being murdered.

I disagree. In all honesty, they are on the same level as others who take delight in insulting and berating while people who criticize humans rights violations of the Islamic state as well as people who go and fight for democracy in those countries are the true freedom fighters.

I don't advocate terrorist acts as a way of dealing with it but people shouldn't pay attention to these publications. Just ignore them and pay attention to the ones with legitimate criticisms and who are willing to go and fight against them in person, not just sit around penning insults.

Absolutely not. I am saying people should ignore those who do nothing but sit around thinking of trashy insults for others and instead focus on the ones with legitimate criticisms and those willing to get off their butts and go do something to help those whose rights are endangered.

If you want to sit around offending everyone and everything it is your business but why should people pay attention to you?

I am all for criticism and action against tyrants but not this bs waste of time where people are just you-know-whatting and calling it satire or freedom fighting or whatever. It is what it is.