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techstepgenr8tion
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25 Mar 2015, 1:07 pm

AngelRho wrote:
He's fine. I don't share his views. But it makes sense if you read through the poetry. He believes in something that somewhat approaches pantheism, though what it is he actually believes is difficult to express in words and in the usual use of language.

Having similar views to his I think he's trying to carry the secondary and tertiary implications - ie. the feel of it, the intangibles, etc.. At the same time I get the feeling he's trying to express himself true to form more than worry about whether or not people can bring themselves to read it all - communication in that case can be a bit of a tug of war between being balls-on-the-table 'you' vs. being coherent to other readers. I know in my own way I used to have that conflict, perhaps still do - I like to think I'm getting better at finding the happy medium with practice.


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aghogday
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25 Mar 2015, 1:20 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
He's fine. I don't share his views. But it makes sense if you read through the poetry. He believes in something that somewhat approaches pantheism, though what it is he actually believes is difficult to express in words and in the usual use of language.

Having similar views to his I think he's trying to carry the secondary and tertiary implications - ie. the feel of it, the intangibles, etc.. At the same time I get the feeling he's trying to express himself true to form more than worry about whether or not people can bring themselves to read it all - communication in that case can be a bit of a tug of war between being balls-on-the-table 'you' vs. being coherent to other readers. I know in my own way I used to have that conflict, perhaps still do - I like to think I'm getting better at finding the happy medium with practice.


Thanks. You are correct.

The human ENGLISH language provides only an approximation of what humans can come to know AND EXPRESS TO EACH OTHER of FULLER reality, including FULLER human potential.

This support site for Autism allows me to do this, in real time, TO THE BEST OF MY ABILITY WITH THE LIMITED TOOL OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE, AS IS, IN NEW CREATIVE WAYS.

THIS SITE DID not, when the 'other' moderators ARE here, as they attempt to conform folks to their ideas of normality, PER THE USE OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE.

It IS possible, IF freedom of expression is truly allowed here, as it continues to be now WHERE HUMAN insights may evolve here either by me or someone else that have never ever been thought of before.

I suppose that's kinda important,

and why I more or less, currently AM taking the lead on

THAT in expanding the comfort zone for JUST THAT TO MAKE IT POSSIBLE.

IT IS POSSIBLE,

WITH fullER REASONABLE freedom of expression.

I am extremely careful to follow the technical rules that exist here, as I value this environment as one for potential greatness in creative minds EXPRESSED IN SYNERGY, again, IF ALLOWED AS CURRENTLY IS, BY THE NEUTRAL MODERATION, WE HAVE HERE, NOW, WITHOUT PERSONAL AGENDA, AS is THE CASE before.


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25 Mar 2015, 1:38 pm

aghogday wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
He's fine. I don't share his views. But it makes sense if you read through the poetry. He believes in something that somewhat approaches pantheism, though what it is he actually believes is difficult to express in words and in the usual use of language.

Having similar views to his I think he's trying to carry the secondary and tertiary implications - ie. the feel of it, the intangibles, etc.. At the same time I get the feeling he's trying to express himself true to form more than worry about whether or not people can bring themselves to read it all - communication in that case can be a bit of a tug of war between being balls-on-the-table 'you' vs. being coherent to other readers. I know in my own way I used to have that conflict, perhaps still do - I like to think I'm getting better at finding the happy medium with practice.


Thanks. You are correct.

The human ENGLISH language provides only an approximation of what humans can come to know AND EXPRESS TO EACH OTHER of FULLER reality, including FULLER human potential.

This support site for Autism allows me to do this, in real time, TO THE BEST OF MY ABILITY WITH THE LIMITED TOOL OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE, AS IS, IN NEW CREATIVE WAYS.

THIS SITE DID not, when the 'other' moderators ARE here, as they attempt to conform folks to their ideas of normality, PER THE USE OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE.

It IS possible, IF freedom of expression is truly allowed here, as it continues to be now WHERE HUMAN insights may evolve here either by me or someone else that have never ever been thought of before.

I suppose that's kinda important,

and why I more or less, currently AM taking the lead on

THAT in expanding the comfort zone for JUST THAT TO MAKE IT POSSIBLE.

IT IS POSSIBLE,

WITH fullER REASONABLE freedom of expression.

I am extremely careful to follow the technical rules that exist here, as I value this environment as one for potential greatness in creative minds EXPRESSED IN SYNERGY, again, IF ALLOWED AS CURRENTLY IS, BY THE NEUTRAL MODERATION, WE HAVE HERE, NOW, WITHOUT PERSONAL AGENDA, AS is THE CASE before.


Wait so you are not form there?



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25 Mar 2015, 2:55 pm

AngelRho wrote:
Janissy wrote:
Lintar wrote:

Given a 'sufficient' amount of time (however long that may be), can an object with the complexity and function of, say, a table ever be transformed, over 'a billion years', into a car? Cells are FAR more complex than either tables or cars, and yes, I understand the role that energy and environment play when it comes to transforming matter. I also understand that those who support abiogenesis tell us that the (relatively simple) constituents of the cell arose independently and then, at some opportune time, came together (how?) to form the first living organism, but...

Well, the problem here is that many, if not most, of the cell's constituents actually require the existence of other simultaneous processes that are taking place within it. Take away, for example, DNA and one no longer has a functioning cell. How does the theory of abiogenesis account for this?


It's a good question and one of biology's current hot topics. Billion year time scales are not an option so the direction of research is not to try to create life in the lab (although somebody may eventually do that) but rather to look at mechanisms that would make it possible. The way of science is not to fill knowledge gaps with God but to look at the question with an eye to a natural causes. Instead of saying "I don't know so God must have done it" the trick is to ask "how could this hapen?" and let that be a non-rhetorical question.

It's not a question biology even CAN answer. It's a matter of chemistry.


It's both. It really is a question on the interface of biology and chemistry known as biochemistry. Hey... we're both right. :P

Quote:
I'm playing around with a musical composition process intended to demonstrate evolution through purely random selection, or as close as I can get to it. I've run the selection process a few times and have had at least one (can't remember if I did more, it's been a couple of weeks) musical tone or event become extinct. Before I create a musical composition based on the idea, I intend to create a short composition consisting of a simple stream of rapid events to demonstrate how certain events become predominant over successive generations. Fluctuations in probabilities lead to an amplifying effect analogous to microphonic feedback that extinguishes certain frequencies while emphasizing others to the point that at most a very limited number of tones are left, if not a single tone.


That sounds very cool.

Quote:
If this works in chemistry, you really could have abiogenesis occur as per the law of very large numbers (e.g. billions of years). The problem for us, though, is it takes SO FREAKIN' LONG, not to mention the fact that abiogenesis is merely one of many possible outcomes. It shouldn't be assumed that even with the law of large numbers that abiogenesis even WOULD occur. Abiogenesis on this planet is a near certainty as a random occurrence if it has a little help and/or a lot more time than the geological age of the earth. Amino acids came from somewhere, if we assume abiogenesis to be true. They certainly didn't come from HERE. The idea that we are alien children is nothing new in the scientific community.


The cosmologists are working on this, as well as the biochemists. There's this:

http://www.space.com/20888-earth-life-amino-acids-asteroids.html

Quote:
Chemical reactions inside nebulas can manufacture amino acids. These molecules end up possessing a certain handedness depending on the light shining on them. The researchers suggest left-handed amino acids may then have rained down on Earth by piggybacking on space rocks, resulting in one handedness dominating the other.

"Left-handed amino acids produced by circular polarization in space can be delivered by meteorites," Kwon said.


I agree that abiogenesis isn't the only possible outcome. I think our status as Goldilocks Planet was the deciding factor. If left handed amino acids piggy backed on a meteorite to Mercury that would be the end of the story.

We may not be the only Goldlilocks Planet.

http://rt.com/news/220439-earth-planets-goldilocks-zone/
Quote:
Astronomers have discovered eight new planets in the so-called "Goldilocks" habitable zone, orbiting at a distance where liquid water, and possibly life, can exist. Two planets are said to be the most similar to Earth of any known exoplanets to date.


Maybe we are star children and maybe we have cousins. It's pretty exciting stuff.



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25 Mar 2015, 4:07 pm

Faith is the graveyard of reason and logic....



aghogday
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25 Mar 2015, 4:35 pm

Canadian1911 wrote:
aghogday wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
He's fine. I don't share his views. But it makes sense if you read through the poetry. He believes in something that somewhat approaches pantheism, though what it is he actually believes is difficult to express in words and in the usual use of language.

Having similar views to his I think he's trying to carry the secondary and tertiary implications - ie. the feel of it, the intangibles, etc.. At the same time I get the feeling he's trying to express himself true to form more than worry about whether or not people can bring themselves to read it all - communication in that case can be a bit of a tug of war between being balls-on-the-table 'you' vs. being coherent to other readers. I know in my own way I used to have that conflict, perhaps still do - I like to think I'm getting better at finding the happy medium with practice.


Thanks. You are correct.

The human ENGLISH language provides only an approximation of what humans can come to know AND EXPRESS TO EACH OTHER of FULLER reality, including FULLER human potential.

This support site for Autism allows me to do this, in real time, TO THE BEST OF MY ABILITY WITH THE LIMITED TOOL OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE, AS IS, IN NEW CREATIVE WAYS.

THIS SITE DID not, when the 'other' moderators ARE here, as they attempt to conform folks to their ideas of normality, PER THE USE OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE.

It IS possible, IF freedom of expression is truly allowed here, as it continues to be now WHERE HUMAN insights may evolve here either by me or someone else that have never ever been thought of before.

I suppose that's kinda important,

and why I more or less, currently AM taking the lead on

THAT in expanding the comfort zone for JUST THAT TO MAKE IT POSSIBLE.

IT IS POSSIBLE,

WITH fullER REASONABLE freedom of expression.

I am extremely careful to follow the technical rules that exist here, as I value this environment as one for potential greatness in creative minds EXPRESSED IN SYNERGY, again, IF ALLOWED AS CURRENTLY IS, BY THE NEUTRAL MODERATION, WE HAVE HERE, NOW, WITHOUT PERSONAL AGENDA, AS is THE CASE before.


Wait so you are not form there?




Well NO, I AM NOT THE FORMS THERE, PER the forms most people use in life, tHere or heRe, NOT in writing a Unique style of FREE VERSE POETRY; A BALLET AND MARTIAL ARTS MIX OF DANCE WALK THAT I NOW do, closing in on 3300 miles in 19 months in all public stores, with my shopaholic wife; AND certainly NOT in NEWER AGE male nude renaissance 'FREE verse nude POETRY' ART that literally no other middle 50's straight male does in the entire blogging world of Google, as such.

And here is more G-RATEd STUFF on the 3000 miles of dance walking for evidence too, and no I do not directly link my adult restricted blog stuff here, as even though it is filtered out stuff FOR minors NOT TO see, like any other potentially inappropriate stuff on the Internet for minors;

http://katiemiafrederick.com/2015/02/02/3000-miles-of-dance-walking-now/

It's really NOT appropriate to directly highlight THAT RESTRICTED ADULT BLOG here. BUT TRULY THAT IS THE MOST AMAZING THING I DO OUT OF THE SOCIAL-NORM-OF CONFORMING FORM, AND YES IT HAS BEEN COMPARED TO THE WORK OF MICHELANGELO'S DAVID, BY THE discerning female eye..;)

BUT MORE impressive, of course, in full blown male nude GLORY WAY, AS frigging ART with Lady Gaga's Born THIS WAY, TO ACCOMPANY MY 'Masterpiece' of me THAT way that literally takes hundreds of hours of HARD WORK TO MAKE IT HAPPEN;

And YES, truly inspired by literally hundreds of female dance partners who KEEP MY CREATIVE JUICES FLOWING.. ALL THE WAY.. evidenced already in this thread, per my blog post, "GOD's Muse of Dance".

And to be clear, I'm just another one of literally millions of folks who muse others with dance.

I just do IT FOR FREE, AS I AM FINANCIALLY Independent, AND money means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO ME.

ONE CAN BURN A THOUSAND DOLLAR BILL IN FRONT OF MY FACE, AND I will NOT flinch an Inch.

And that baby, is FREEDOM IN THIS MATERIALISTIC WORLD that most people DO LIVE IN.

I AM FREE FROM many CULTURAL FORMS.

AND TRULY THAT'S A BLESSING.

HOWEVER, IF THAT WAS JUST AN IRONIC TYPO GENERATED BY THE GOD THAT IS ALL THAT IS; AND YOU MEAN FROM HERE INSTEAD OF FORMS THERE, THANK 'you'; YES, GOD and 'you', for inspiring this next message..:)

Yes, I live in Florida my entire life.

I live in a frigging REDNECK TOWN, WITH FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIANS, GALORE, everywhere I go.

AND IF I am NOT PROFICIENT, AS ONE BAD A** MARTIAL ARTS DUDE, BY NOW, someone might have
metaphorically tarred and feathered me, FOR BEING TOO FRIGGING OUT OF THE Red State BOX.

Trust me, where I live, I have to become SUPERMAN TO DO WHAT I DO BABY, AND I START OFF AS WIMPY AND STRING BEAN, AS ANY MALE IN MY COMMUNITY, even after puberty, at 13 years old.

No one giggles at me IN FRONT OF MY FACE, IN REAL LIFE, NOW, NOT EVEN A WIMPER, when they see WHAT I CAN DO WITH MY LEGS OF 'STEEL'..;)

AND QUITE HONESTLY, IN SO-CALLED 'redneck' HOMOBPHOBE language my dance is more over the top, than the 'Gayest man alive' CAN dream of..:)

And yeah, I'm straight as an arrow; ya can ask my girl FRIENDS about THAT 'PART', AND it's pretty clear in ALL THE ART I DO, AS per additional stereotype, I LOOK MORE LIKE 'JAMES BOND' THAN PETER PAN, ALTHOUGH I CAN MOVE LIKE 'PETER PAN' or 'Spider man'.

OR MY WIFE, at age 44, WHO IS MORE BEAUTIFUL THAN ANY 20-SOMETHING year old fast dancing girl FRIEND, at one of the top 100 rated dance clubs in America, per Old Seville Quarter IN BEACH TOWN, USA, PENSACOLA FLORIDA, where I do most of my RAVE dancing PRACTICE, 52 WEEKS, AS OF this Thursday NIGHT.

Here's the deal, if you haven't heard the entire story, I am almost a complete shut-in with 19 documented medical disorders, including the worst pain known to mankind, Type Two Trigeminal Neuralgia that in medical literature is named a pain worse than crucifixion.

The GOD of Nature 'blesses' me with that PAIN that is like novocaine-LESS, drilling of my teeth for close to 66 months, with no relief other than sleep, and the PAIN IS IN MY RIGHT EYE AND EAR, MAKING EFFECTIVE USE OF VISION OR HEARING, IMPOSSIBLE WITHOUT INCREDIBLE NEVER ENDING Pain, other than sleep, IN WORSE THAN LITERAL HELL FIRE ETERNAL PAIN.

At the start of the SEVERE PART OF THE pain disorder, at the end of February through March and the beginning of April of 2008, I go 40 days without sleep, except for one hour of very shallow sleep each night for the first 35 of 40 days, using a powerful alpha blocker prescribed by a doctor, and absolutely no sleep for the last 5 of 40 days of truly literal human hell, where every second IS like a thousand years of hell.

I AM also 'blessed' with Dyautonomia, where my blood pressure and heart rate is no longer synched properly by my Central Nervous system orchestrating balance in my cardio-vascular and respiratory system, during that 5 years.

When I raise my arms or attempt to walk around the block, I almost pass out, then.

And through the effect of the Auto-Immune Disease of Sjogren's syndrome, my eyes also stop making tears that is a another nail in the torture of a sensation of swimming in salt water with one's eyes wide open.

I stay in a dark room for 8 months, at risk of losing my eyesight all together, until the immune system modulator eye drops, Restasis, saves my eyes; literally, speaking.

And yeah there is 16 other disorders of serious note, and even more than that of lesser serious note, including spinal stenosis; severe degenerative arthritis in my spine; a congenitally fused T-6 vertebrae in my neck; a congenitally deviated septum so severe that the ENT asks me how I can breathe at all through my nose that still is not fixed due to the potential RISK OF re-development of the Trigeminal Neuralgia PAIN, per associated anatomical features in my sinuses; and fibromyalgia.

Oh yeah, the Autism Thingy I am diagnosed with around the same time at age 47, is the least of my worries, alone, and honestly the worst part of all IS almost totally losing my emotions like a frigging walking dead zombie, associated with Alexithymia.

By the time I get well; YES, miraculously healed by the higher power of the GOD of Nature I FIND within me, I cannot remember what my face looks like, and I basically have to start life as a human all over again, IN REAL LIFE.

Quite a challenge that IS, and considering all of that; OH MY GOD,YES, MY FAITH IN GOD IS AT LEAST AS GREAT AS ANY SO-CALLED 'JOB' WHO EVER EXISTS.

IT IS 100%, baby; no holds barred.

And that's a nice place to be as it allows me to live forever, in the heaven of now, where time does NOT EVEN EXIST.

IT'S REAL, AND ALL THE AMAZING THINGS EVIDENCED HERE, I can do in REAL LIFE, IRREFUTABLY PROVIDED HERE, ARE A DIRECT RESULT OF THE HIGHER POWER OF GOD IN ME THAT I NEVER CLOSE TO FULLY DEVELOP AND PRACTICE before July 22nd or so, in the YEAR OF 'OUR LORD', 2013.

IT'S REAL FOR ME, and at least in my life that's what counts.

As far as I know, GOD is THE GOD OF HUMAN NATURE MERIT.

THERE IS NO 'MAGIC incantations'
that will work, like John 3:16,
WITHOUT TRUE
EMOTING POWERS IN EMOTIONS OF
HUMAN RELATIVE FREE WILL, FAITH, HOPE, AND MOST
IMPORTANTLY PERSONAL BELIEF IN SELF, WITH TRUST IN MOTHER NATURE TRUE
AKA GOD AKA ILLUMINATI OR TRUTH AND LIGHT OF MUCH FULLER HUMAN POTENTIAL
IN PRACTICING MIND AND BODY BALANCE CONTINUALLY NOW, AS THERE ARE NO FREE

RIDES TO BLISS, now or then.

And none of it will work without the power of Human Imagination and Creativity SET FREE!..:)

And the reason I go to all this trouble is
I'm NOW A VIRTUAL 'expert' ON Pain
and Suffering and how to heal
it and stay away from it in all natural amazing higher power of GOD ways.
I only suggest that one DEVELOPS mind and body balance, whatever way works to attain
THAT AND all the human made miracles that I currently enjoy and perhaps infinitely

MORE, 'ROAR', MORE.

AND with that said, have a nice now; it's time for me to work-out 3 hours in my martial arts, ballet, and extreme strength style of getting even more graceful AND STRONG, AT my local military station, for elite military athletes..:)

Well, some of 'em, anyway, as there are some WHO sit around on their smart phones, instead of sweating, hehe!..;)

MY SUCCESS IS IN BLOOD SWEAT AND TEARS.

AND THE FIRST STEP BACK IN GETTING WELL IS BEING ABLE TO SHED A TEAR, AFTER 5 LONG YEARS, WHEN A BELOVED CAT DIES IN MARCH OF 2013. THE personal DARKNESS OF THAT CAT'S INJURY AND DEATH, PERHAPS ALLOWS ME TO EVENTUALLY CREATE HUMAN MIRACLES COME ALIVE, for me.

SO YEAH, I GUESS I MIGHT OWE IT ALL TO THE SON OF MY 'YELLOW BOY' CAT, NAMED SUNNY BOY, who dies.

BUT, NAH, IT IS MORE LIKELY THE GIFT OF 'OREO', A SIX LB, or so, SCRAPPY TABBY MIX WITH TUXEDO NEIGHBORHOOD TOM CAT WHO WHIPS SUNNY BOY'S BUTT, TEARING FLESH FROM HIS HEAD, RESULTING IN THE TEAR OF ME FROM PUTTING 'SUNNY BOY' DOWN.

YEAH, IT IS LIKE THAT MOVIE NAMED 'OLD YELLER', about A dog, most likely before your 'time'....

Life is a gift.

MOST OFTEN A very hard gift TO ENJOY.

But never-the-less, a worthwhile

one for those who persist,

adapt to challenge, and survive.

God is no wimp.

God IS 'BAD A** FORCE'.

YEAH, THE EAST INDIAN GOD KALI, IS A PRETTY/UGLY CLOSE TO
ACCURATE FLESH AND BLOOD METAPHORICAL
INCARNATION OF GOD, OR PERHAPS
THE EGYPTIAN GOD 'MIN' WHO IS ALWAYS 'HAPPY' TO 'SEE' FOLKS 'COME'...;)

ENJOY THE WAVE, AND TRY NOT TO FALL OFF, IS TRULY THE ONLY ADVICE I HAVE, IN MIND AND BODY BALANCE,
TO OFFER FOR THE REAL POTENTIAL OF HEAVEN NOW. AND NAH, BY far, I am certainly not the first person to offer
that simple

YET EFFECTIVE TRUTH AND LIGHT IN ADVICE..:)

Thanks again, for the 'muse'.

YES, 'WE' need 'this'..:)

IT IS THE BUTTERFLY EFFECT AND AFFECT OF THE GOD
OF MOTHER NATURE AND HUMAN NATURE TRUTH AND LIGHT.


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25 Mar 2015, 5:04 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Faith is the graveyard of reason and logic....


Reason and Logic used to the exclusion of the emoting power of the ALL INNATELY, INSTINCTUALLY, INTUITIVELY INTERNALLY, DEVELOPED, UTILIZED, AND PRACTICED EMOTION FAITH, can certainly be a rather 'shallow grave' in life.

TG, I for one have A MUCH DEEPER LIFE THAN 'that shallow grave' IN 'DEATH IN LIFE'.

BUT OF course that is the responsibility OF each Unique Human BEING TO RAISE IN LIFE THROUGH the HARD and SOFT WORK OF PHYSICAL INTELLIGENCE IN THE BALANCE OF GRACE AND STRENGTH THAT CAN BE EMOTED BY THE HUMAN EMOTIONS of Human Relative Free WILL, FAITH, HOPE, and most IMPORTANTLY BELIEF IN ONE'S SELF, AND MOTHER NATURE TRUTH COME HUMAN NATURE TRUTH, AKA GOD AND THE PART THAT IS HUMAN KIND, WORKING WITH, WITHOUT, OR AGAINST, THE REST OF MOTHER NATURE TRUE and human nature true...:)

Any questions...

It's only complicated as illusory complex language and cultures can make it.

My cat has absolutely no problem WITH THAT, AS HE LIVES NO COMPLEX LANGUAGE AND CULTURAL ILLUSIONS OF SILLY LITTLE SO-CALLED HUMAN FIRST WORLD PROBLEMS, GENERATED BY SO-CALLED
KNOW IT ALL HUMANS..;)

Oh yeah, and regarding 'Sunny Boy' from my last post up there, for the folks here who do have a heart, soul, and spirit, also known as humanity; here is MORE about Sunny Boy, who actually dies in early April 2013, around the time of Easter...

And nah he didn't come back but I FRIGGING DID, THANKS, in part to TO HIS LAST DYING DAY OF HELP IN LIFE.

THIS STUFF IS NO FRIGGING JOKE; THIS STUFF IS LIFE AND DEATH HUMANitY REALITY; DEAD OR ALIVE in LIFE.

http://katiemiaaghogday.blogspot.com/2013/04/goodbye-sunny-boy.htm


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25 Mar 2015, 7:21 pm

badgerface wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
...If you assume there IS a God, it's easy to prove there is.


Why assume there is a "god"? Nobody assumes there is unless the idea is put in their head; usually through childhood indoctrination.


Actually, speaking of childhood indoctrination, when I was a child myself I was as cynical and caustic as the most jaded internet atheist imaginable. I would openly ridicule people who told me they believed in God, and openly laughed at their perceived gullibility. Slowly, however, I came to the realisation that what I had believed as a child was based more upon pure ignorance than anything else. The more I learn about reality, the more convinced I become that the simplistic view that nature is all there is and could possibly be, just doesn't make sense.

Not everyone who is a theist, agnostic or deist, was 'brainwashed' when they were young. Many came to believe what they do after having been an atheist - like me - for a long time, but became disillusioned with it all as they entered their teens and early adulthood. This is a fact that many internet atheists just don't like to recognise.



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25 Mar 2015, 7:25 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Faith is the graveyard of reason and logic....
Faith in what? Materialism?

I'd have to agree that Materialism is the death or reason and logic as Materialism doesn't even admit that such metaphysical things even exist.



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25 Mar 2015, 7:37 pm

izzeme wrote:
Neither side can prove either their own right or the others' wrong.
However, one side has proven that a diety isn't strictly *required*, reality (assuming our experience is indeed real) can be fully explained by science, without invoking a god at any moment.

As it stands, the more logical assumption is that there is no god, since there is no reason for him to exist.


Point 1: 'Neither side can prove either their own right or the others' wrong'.

True, but does this really matter? This shouldn't be a contest of ego's, but a quest for the truth.

Point 2: 'However, one side has proven that a diety isn't strictly *required*, reality (assuming our experience is indeed real) can be fully explained by science, without invoking a god at any moment.'

'Proven'? Really? Was it not you who told me that atheists do not concern themselves with 'proof' but rather evidence, or was that someone else? 'Assuming our experience is indeed real' - Hmm, yes, this is a philosophical question, not a scientific one, so how can you make the subsequent claim that it can be 'fully explained by science'? Can you list just one single thing that has been fully explained by science? Hint: Don't say orbital motion, for although a simple system that has only two entities within it - ex. the sun and earth - can be accounted for, there is the, not-so-small, issue known as the 'three-body problem' (or 'n-body problem') that has, in spite of repeated attempts by the very best mathematicians and astronomers, still not been satisfactorily resolved.

Point 3: 'As it stands, the more logical assumption is that there is no god, since there is no reason for him to exist.'

No reason. At all? Are you sure? Go on, think about it. Think hard :mrgreen:



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25 Mar 2015, 7:44 pm

Oldavid wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Faith is the graveyard of reason and logic....
Faith in what? Materialism?

I'd have to agree that Materialism is the death or reason and logic as Materialism doesn't even admit that such metaphysical things even exist.


Yes, what is faith anyway? This is how I see it. Faith can be defined as being a confidence that one has, in a person, belief, situation, phenomenon et cetera, that is based upon prior personal experience with the aforementioned person, belief (and so on), this confidence being in turn based upon the knowledge that whatever it is that one has faith in, it is not misplaced.

Everyone has faith in something. Even atheists do. They have the unshakeable faith that they are right, everyone else is wrong, that God does not exist, that matter is all there is, and that when the 'singularity' is reached at some point in the mid-21st century we will all become like gods.



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26 Mar 2015, 6:52 am

Lintar wrote:
Oldavid wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Faith is the graveyard of reason and logic....
Faith in what? Materialism?

I'd have to agree that Materialism is the death or reason and logic as Materialism doesn't even admit that such metaphysical things even exist.


Yes, what is faith anyway? This is how I see it. Faith can be defined as being a confidence that one has, in a person, belief, situation, phenomenon et cetera, that is based upon prior personal experience with the aforementioned person, belief (and so on), this confidence being in turn based upon the knowledge that whatever it is that one has faith in, it is not misplaced.

Everyone has faith in something. Even atheists do. They have the unshakeable faith that they are right, everyone else is wrong, that God does not exist, that matter is all there is, and that when the 'singularity' is reached at some point in the mid-21st century we will all become like gods.


'Amen'. :)


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daniel1948
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26 Mar 2015, 9:58 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
The existence of God/gods/spirits/goblins/etc. cannot be proven in an objective, "logical" sense.

In order for this to happen, this Supreme Being would have to reveal Him/Her/Itself to all 7 billion people in the world at the same time. ...


I'm going to disagree with this. A proof would not have to be revealed simultaneously to the entire world. If there were an all-powerful, all-knowing God, he could prove his existence by some means we have not yet thought of, and could allow that proof to be disseminated gradually. Since he has not done so, we are left with a few possibilities:

1. There is no such thing as a god. This is the possibility that seems most likely to me, given what follows.

2. He just has not gotten around to it yet. This would imply that he does not care about all the people who've lived and died in ignorance of his existence. Such a God seems like kind of a jerk.

3. He just doesn't care whether anyone believes in him or not. Since Christianity explicitly states that he wants us to believe in him, this God is not the Christian God and Christianity would thus be false.

4. He wants us to believe in him without proof or evidence, therefore does not provide proof of his existence. This is what many Christians claim. I've mentioned this concept before: That faith is belief in the absence of evidence, or even against the evidence. Many Christians consider that faith is most pure when the evidence is strongly against. But a God who demands that we believe without evidence, and even punishes us for non-belief or for wrong belief when all the evidence is against his existence, is clearly a psychopath. Since Christianity asserts that God is purely good, this fourth possibility, if true, would mean that Christianity is false.

The lack of clear, unambiguous proof for the existence of God does not prove that there is no God. But it does prove that Christianity is wrong in its description of God. Christians could remedy this if they were to admit of a God who is not all-powerful. A bumbling God could be consistent with the world as we see it. Or they could remedy it if they gave up the idea that God likes humankind best. A God who does not give a hill of beans for humans, who regards us the way we regard mosquitos, would be consistent with the world as we see it. There are other aspects of Christianity that, if abandoned, would eliminate the contradictions. There still would be no proof of God, but at least their religion would no longer be demonstrably false.



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26 Mar 2015, 10:50 am

Lintar wrote:
Everyone has faith in something. Even atheists do. They have the unshakeable faith that they are right, everyone else is wrong, that God does not exist, that matter is all there is, and that when the 'singularity' is reached at some point in the mid-21st century we will all become like gods.


erm, nope, that'd be an antitheist. an atheist simply doesn't believe in your claims, it is a *lack* of believe by definition.


-snip Daniel -

i agree with that, and i got a few other options; mainly aimed at why there is evil and suffering in the world, and why God doesn't fix that.

1) God doesn't exist:
This one is obvious; if he doesn't exist, he can't fix anything.

2) he wants to fix it, but is unable to:
in this case, he is not omnipotent, and not worthy of the name 'god', not by biblical definitions

3) he can fix it, but doesn't want to:
here, we got ourselves an evil god, all gods followed by monotheistic religions are 'good', so those religions are wrong. also, i would not follow this guy

4) he neither can or wants to:
in this case, he is both evil and not omnipotent, why worship this guy?

all 4 options give me a clear reason to not worship 'god', and has effectively made his existence irrelevant (i still dont believe he exists, for the reasons summarised by daniel1948)



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26 Mar 2015, 1:16 pm

izzeme wrote:
Lintar wrote:
Everyone has faith in something. Even atheists do. They have the unshakeable faith that they are right, everyone else is wrong, that God does not exist, that matter is all there is, and that when the 'singularity' is reached at some point in the mid-21st century we will all become like gods.


erm, nope, that'd be an antitheist. an atheist simply doesn't believe in your claims, it is a *lack* of believe by definition.


-snip Daniel -

i agree with that, and i got a few other options; mainly aimed at why there is evil and suffering in the world, and why God doesn't fix that.

1) God doesn't exist:
This one is obvious; if he doesn't exist, he can't fix anything.

2) he wants to fix it, but is unable to:
in this case, he is not omnipotent, and not worthy of the name 'god', not by biblical definitions

3) he can fix it, but doesn't want to:
here, we got ourselves an evil god, all gods followed by monotheistic religions are 'good', so those religions are wrong. also, i would not follow this guy

4) he neither can or wants to:
in this case, he is both evil and not omnipotent, why worship this guy?

all 4 options give me a clear reason to not worship 'god', and has effectively made his existence irrelevant (i still dont believe he exists, for the reasons summarised by daniel1948)


The ultimate TRUTH IS THERE IS NO ESCAPING ALIVE, EXISTENCE, AS IS, AKA GOD.

Smart folks figure this out by increasing their existential intelligence and JUST ENJOY LIFE, AS IS.

NOT SO SMART FOLKS, DO NOT DO THAT,

per WHATEVER IT TAKES.

Smiling folks in 'Church', in CHURCH RICH countries,

are the countries with the lowest rates of suicide.

Hmm.. who ARE THE SMART ONE'S WHEN IT

COMES TO REPRODUCING AND

SURVIVING.

NAH, THAT HAS LITTLE TO NOTHING TO DO,
WITH EITHER GRADE SCHOOL

STATUS..
OR

FIRST WORLD PROBLEMS.

Honestly, at the 'end of the day', it all comes down to
how much 'love' a person CAN GIVE AND RECEIVE, AS
SOCIALLY COOPERATIVE HUMAN ANIMALS.

ANYTHING ELSE IS NEITHER SCIENTIFIC
PER WHAT HUMAN NATURE
EVEN MEANS

OR
FRIGGING COMMON SENSE
FOR human social animal
COOPERATIVE SURVIVAL.

CHURCH is definitely THE HOUSING
AND METAPHOR OF VEHICLES AND
VESSELS FOR HUMAN
COOPERATIVE SOCIAL ANIMAL
'LOVE' TO MAKE
THAT HAPPEN AS
EVIDENCED IN EXTREMELY LOW
SUICIDE RATES FOR FOLKS WITH

EXISTENTIAL

INTELLIGENCE who DO GO TO CHURCH.

All that TRULY matters is existence
makes sense, and A person
can live happily and fear free.

If that takes a myth to MAKE THAT HAPPEN..

IT DAM SURE BEATS
SUICIDE
ANY DAY OF
NOW.

I'VE VISITED SCORES OF CHURCHES WITH THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE,

AND THE COMMON DENOMINATOR OF most of ALL

THAT TRULY COUNTS

IS IN HUMAN SOCIAL COOPERATION AND 'LOVE'.

Now to be clear, these are fallible
humans WHO WILL exclude folks
who are much different than
the perceived norm.

But that's just Human
Instinct and Nature

per
the
'SCIENCE' OF ANTHROPOLOGY 101.

To understand Human Nature and to take advantage of
ALL THE BENEFITS, WITHOUT THROWING THE 'BABY' OUT
WITH SOME DIRTY DEVIL DETAILS OF WATER..

IS TO SURVIVE, WITHOUT HUMAN

suffering, and misery.

Anything else is

JUST


TRUEST HUMAN NATURE, SCIENCE BASED
'STUPIDITY'.

Nah, the folks going to church,
by the end of the day,

are the ones who ARE going to reproduce the most,
and simply or COMPLEXLY SURVIVE; THAT'S JUST
BASIC MATH, AND HEAD COUNTS 101,
PER ALL THAT TRULY
COUNTS, IN ANY
ANIMAL'S
LIFE,
OVERALL, TO JUST
FRIGGING GET HERE, AND EXIST.

Hmm.. 'GOD' JUST GIGGLES
AT
FIRST WORLD PROBLEMS

AND YEAH..

'GOD' STICKS GOD'S 'TONGUE OUT'
AT HUMAN BEINGS, AS HAHA!
THERE IS NO FRIGGING ESCAPE ALIVE
FROM NATURE AKA GOD MANIFEST IN
HUMANS AS HUMAN NATURE.
LIKE IT OR NOT, THE GOD OF
NATURE IS
'YOUR' MASTER
WITH
NO FRIGGING
LIVING
EXCAPE.

I make the best of it,
as I have learned to
TRULY BE SMART,
WITH FULLER HUMAN
INTELLIGENCES, INCLUDING
EXISTENTIAL INTELLIGENCE,
more fully
Utilized and Practiced
NOW..:)


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26 Mar 2015, 1:26 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
The existence of God/gods/spirits/goblins/etc. cannot be proven in an objective, "logical" sense.

In order for this to happen, this Supreme Being would have to reveal Him/Her/Itself to all 7 billion people in the world at the same time.

It's an article of "Faith"--this belief in God.

It cannot be proven empirically--either side of the argument.

It's fun to argue, though, right? :lol:


The existence of God can be proven.

As for his nature, then this is something only He can tell us about.

And communication does not have to be direct, it can indirect through messengers and prophets.