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10 Feb 2015, 2:00 am

Imagine, in an alternate universe perhaps, a world where Christianity never got off the ground. What would have happened, and where would we be today:

- Socially
- Technologically
- Culturally
- Philosophically
- Fiscally
?

I get the idea that the Greek / Roman gods would have fallen to empiricism. And without the early church bias against science, we may have also been more technologically advanced at an earlier time.

The Crusades would not have happened, but perhaps some other violent cultural nexus may have occurred.

I'm thinking that with less superstition, psychology would also have taken off earlier and been more closely aligned with platonic philosophy.

Fiscally, the world would be very different, with so much less hoarded by the church and used perhaps for more cultural pursuits. Or perhaps rulers would have found other ways to hoard it.

Judaism may have flourished, but no more so than any other minor religion. Islam would not have been emboldened by war and the Crusades and may have fallen into irrelevance. Some of the Celtic, Germanic and Viking religions may have lasted longer than they did.


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10 Feb 2015, 2:09 am

You should check out a book called Years of Rice and Salt, by Kim Stanley-Robinson. Its an alternate-history book where virtually all Europeans are wiped out by the Black Plague, and Islam and China vie for power. Besides one episode of Family Guy, I haven't seen any fiction come closer to a world without Christianity.

There could have been a Harry Turtledove story or something about the Roman Empire going Jewish. I can't remember much about it besides controversy over circumcision.

I think that if Christianity wasn't invented the Romans would have gone for another religion to make into the State Cult. I hear that the goddess Isis was popular back in the day, with shrines all the way into Britain. They could have gone with Mithras, he was big with soldiers. Or maybe they'd go full secular, and we'd see all the old European faiths thriving.

I'd assume that a polytheistic Europe would be a lot more pluralist than a monothiest one. I mean politically, you wouldn't have just one church bossing everyone around and telling them what to do.

I wouldn't necessarily assume that the world would be a better place without Christianity. I mean, its pretty annoying, but you can always imagine a worse creed. Something with literal cannibalism or ritual child-beating, for example.



aghogday
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10 Feb 2015, 2:27 am

If NOT for Christianity THE patriarchal homophobes will likely burn the homosexuals, over here in Christian 'Redneck' areas IF converted over to Atheists, like the Atheist patriarchal homophobe folks do over in Russia, as they are not afraid of going to hell for killing someone.

Yes, that's an extreme example; however, without the threat of ETERNAL punishment some folks will do unusual things to hurt others..

At least in a materialistic society.

Not nearly as much of a POTENTIAL problem when folks are sharing subsistence, per so called primitive tribes, RELYING on each other for subsistence, overall.

A non-reproducing Uncle can be an asset to gather resources for the rest of the tribe, or perhaps a two-spirit medicine man to lift the spirit Tribe Morale through dance and such as that. :)

Trust me, it wouldn't be much fun for folks who are different, if it wasn't for Jesus around here, where I live in patriarchal red state 'heaven'.

Verbal abuse could change to bloodshed, or that burning folks alive thingy.

However, honestly, another religion with similar Universal truths will just likely be relabeled as such, as it is the nature of the beast that is human to have organized religion, overall, where subsistence is hard to come by, and not readily shared, at least as science shows now, in the available research on religion and subsistence.

It works okay in Homogenous relatively small Scandinavian countries; however, with increasing immigration of folks WHO LOOK DIFFERENT AND BELIEVE DIFFERENTLY, THE SH** IS STARTING TO hit the fan, over there too. ;)


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10 Feb 2015, 2:54 am

First one must study history, instead of looking/talking to the log in the head.



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10 Feb 2015, 2:58 am

traven wrote:
First one must study history, instead of looking/talking to the log in the head.

And once you've done that, what would be your take on the question?


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aghogday
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10 Feb 2015, 3:02 am

traven wrote:
First one must study history, instead of looking/talking to the log in the head.


Hmm.. tell that to people WHO DO NOT HAVE HISTORY BOOKS.

THEY get by fine, as is, as it is a built in thingy, for those who learn HOW TO USE human instinct as AN innate GIFT in REAL TIME NOW.

SAME BASIC thingY the other animals do....

And overall they DO IT BETTER, per even gaining animal homeostasis compared to an average so-called modern citizen of the world of textbooks and such as that.

It's common sense, NOT HISTORY that really counts in the REAL WORLD NOW.


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10 Feb 2015, 5:51 am



Sorry I could not resist :D


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10 Feb 2015, 6:25 am

DentArthurDent wrote:
Sorry I could not resist :D

:lol:


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10 Feb 2015, 7:13 am

If not for Christianity, the West would still be run and occupied by its indigenous peoples, with Europeans in the minority.

If not for Christianity, Ireland would still be genuinely Irish, not the current muddle of English, German, Irish, Scots, and Spanish.

If not for Christianity, science would be more advanced, instead of repressed by superstition and church leaders fearful of losing control of the people and their money.

If not for Christianity, slavery, conquest by genocide, and subjugation of women would be all but eliminated, because there would be no holy book to say or imply that these things were alright.

If not for Christianity, we could have meaningful discussions on any subject without some religious nutter telling us we're all Very Bad People because we don't acknowledge their god.


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10 Feb 2015, 7:41 am

Fnord you are an interesting person. For years I assumed you were an atheist, then I discovered you are a Christian! or am I mistaken?


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10 Feb 2015, 7:50 am

DentArthurDent wrote:
Fnord you are an interesting person. For years I assumed you were an atheist, then I discovered you are a Christian! or am I mistaken?

lol.. language hey.. implied double negative can be read wrong.. take another look :P


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10 Feb 2015, 9:07 am

DentArthurDent wrote:
Fnord you are an interesting person. For years I assumed you were an atheist, then I discovered you are a Christian! or am I mistaken?
If by 'Christian' you mean holier than you, with the keys to Heaven and Hell dangling from my belt and rod of Wrathful Righteousness with which to beat the devil out of you, then the answer is 'No'.

If instead you mean trying to follow the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth (called 'Christ') then ... maybe ...


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10 Feb 2015, 9:43 am

Fnord wrote:
DentArthurDent wrote:
Fnord you are an interesting person. For years I assumed you were an atheist, then I discovered you are a Christian! or am I mistaken?
If by 'Christian' you mean holier than you, with the keys to Heaven and Hell dangling from my belt and rod of Wrathful Righteousness with which to beat the devil out of you, then the answer is 'No'.

If instead you mean trying to follow the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth (called 'Christ') then ... maybe ...


Ameen.


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10 Feb 2015, 9:53 am

Narrator wrote:
Imagine, in an alternate universe perhaps, a world where Christianity never got off the ground. What would have happened, and where would we be today:

- Socially
- Technologically
- Culturally
- Philosophically
- Fiscally
?

I get the idea that the Greek / Roman gods would have fallen to empiricism. And without the early church bias against science, we may have also been more technologically advanced at an earlier time.

The Crusades would not have happened, but perhaps some other violent cultural nexus may have occurred.

I'm thinking that with less superstition, psychology would also have taken off earlier and been more closely aligned with platonic philosophy.

Fiscally, the world would be very different, with so much less hoarded by the church and used perhaps for more cultural pursuits. Or perhaps rulers would have found other ways to hoard it.

Judaism may have flourished, but no more so than any other minor religion. Islam would not have been emboldened by war and the Crusades and may have fallen into irrelevance. Some of the Celtic, Germanic and Viking religions may have lasted longer than they did.


You answered your own question. The Greco-Roman Gods would have fallen to empiricism, but a jump straight from polytheism to atheism would have been impossible in ancient times. The polytheism of the classical world would have been replaced by some kind of monotheistic cult coming from the middle east. Jews were migrating westward, and Romans were already dabbling in Mithrism, and other Persian cults influenced by Zorastrianism. So likely some creed that was an exportable version of Judaism with Zorastrian elements would have jelled, and then caught on (something alot like christianity).

Islam is really a heretical sect of Christianity- its really Arianism. So it would not have even appeared if Christianity had not existed first. But since something like Christianity would have evolved anyway- Islam would still have evolved, and so would have the conficts and enmity between the two religions (Crusades, Jihads, and all).

The church kept learning alive in the dark ages via the monastary system. But centuries later the church straight jacketed learning. So it balances out.

Things wouldnt be that different.



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10 Feb 2015, 11:10 am

Wouldn't have Italians (Romans) been Martians till lets say the 14th century then went to atheism. Christianity in the present form may have just been a minority philosophy that never become an organised religion. America may have been discovered in the 9th or 10th century. Mexico's official language may have still been Nahuatl rather than Spanish as the Mexica Indians would still be the ruling people in Mexico and the Roman Empire may have been trading with the Mexica and Inca Empires. Perhaps the Internet would have been invented in the 12th century and the Industrial Revolution would have started in the 8th century etc. Martian in this case I mean the polytheistic Italian/Roman religion although other gods/goddesses such as Isis and Mithras for example were worshipped as well and added to the Martian pontheon. The adjective Martian meaning associated with the god of war, Mars (rather than off topic aliens) :!:



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10 Feb 2015, 4:21 pm

aghogday wrote:
If NOT for Christianity THE patriarchal homophobes will likely burn the homosexuals, over here in Christian 'Redneck' areas IF converted over to Atheists, like the Atheist patriarchal homophobe folks do over in Russia, as they are not afraid of going to hell for killing someone.

Yes, that's an extreme example; however, without the threat of ETERNAL punishment some folks will do unusual things to hurt others..



BS. The suggestion that somehow a belief in a wrathful god prevents the mainstream from committing atrocities I really have to wonder at your cognitive abilities let alone your research ones. Here is a clue, secularism is increasing rapidly yet crime stats are dropping and as to homosexuality when you look at the stats for Europe acceptance correlates well to religious belief. IE those countries with a higher agnostic/atheistic attitude have far more acceptance of homosexuality than the more traditionally religious ones. And as to Good ol rednecks being to afraid of God to go a'lynching :roll:


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