Victims of pedophile priests and imams help create more vict

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GnosticBishop
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12 Feb 2016, 1:21 pm

Victims of pedophile priests and imams help create more victims with silence.

I recently watched this disturbing movie and recognize that what it portrays fairly closely what is happenings in reality right now.

https://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=fQa ... ht+trailer

The silence and complicity of the religious are facilitating and colluding in the future assaults on children. Silence or the acceptance of a payoff, in my opinion, is direct collusion with these religious criminals and I see the past victims of these pedophiles as now helping their own assailants create new victims by their silence.

I appreciate that going public is hard, but if victims do not come forward, I see them as helping the priests and imams that are left free to abuse other children.

There are some who will read this and know that in a real sense victims are guilty of helping the pedophile problem continue.

I would urge these victims and their families to step up and do the right thing and return the payoffs and lay charges instead so that we can rid our churches and mosques of these predatory criminals.

Do you agree that silence is just as immoral as the initial crime when victims accept payoffs from religions to buy their silence?

Regards
DL



Sweetleaf
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12 Feb 2016, 1:38 pm

No I do not think victims themselves of sexual assault from religious leaders/role models are responsible for contributing to the pedophile problem.

-Rape/sexual assault is traumatizing especially for children, its actually very common for children not to come forward right away when being abused that way. Also someone doesn't just automatically get believed if they say they've been sexually assaulted.

-The people who commit the sexual assault, and those aware of it who encourage silence on the matter or actively cover it up are the problem....not the victims who have to suffer that sick behavior.


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KagamineLen
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12 Feb 2016, 2:17 pm

Only somebody who has never been sexually abused could make such a moronic argument that victims have any responsibility in this situation.



0_equals_true
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12 Feb 2016, 3:00 pm

Responsibility is obviously a bad choice of word.

If more victims come forward, this obviously empowers other victims. However this is far from easy. They need to eb encouraged without prejudicing justice.

Unfortunately in very public case they do attract attention seekers and people with mental illness. This happened in some public cases in the UK. This only undermines confidence in the process. I feel bad for the victims.

I disagree with calling them responsible, but I also disagree with being overly simplistic about these issues. That doesn't help anyone.



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12 Feb 2016, 5:05 pm

IMO, it makes me wonder why men choose to become priests, other that when ordained, they feel that they are entitled to abusing their powers as a priest. Obviously, not all priests are pedophiles, but in many articles that I've read, priests who molest children have sex drives on the same level as an adolescent.

I also recommend watching Spotlight, which is about the 2003 sex abuse scandal in the Archodiocese of Boston.


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GnosticBishop
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12 Feb 2016, 5:45 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
No I do not think victims themselves of sexual assault from religious leaders/role models are responsible for contributing to the pedophile problem.

-Rape/sexual assault is traumatizing especially for children, its actually very common for children not to come forward right away when being abused that way. Also someone doesn't just automatically get believed if they say they've been sexually assaulted.

-The people who commit the sexual assault, and those aware of it who encourage silence on the matter or actively cover it up are the problem....not the victims who have to suffer that sick behavior.


No argument except for your first.

I see the unfortunate victims as a part of the problem when they do not speak out.

Ask victim #2 if he thinks victim #1 should have laid a charge or take the money.

Ask victim 6 if victims 1,2,3 etc. should have laid a charge or taken the money.

I sympathise with all the victims but the latter ones would not exist if the former ones did the right thing and laid charges instead of taking the cash.

Regards
DL



GnosticBishop
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12 Feb 2016, 5:57 pm

KagamineLen wrote:
Only somebody who has never been sexually abused could make such a moronic argument that victims have any responsibility in this situation.


For their own abuse. I agree.
That was not ever indicated.

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DL



nurseangela
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12 Feb 2016, 6:00 pm

GnosticBishop wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
No I do not think victims themselves of sexual assault from religious leaders/role models are responsible for contributing to the pedophile problem.

-Rape/sexual assault is traumatizing especially for children, its actually very common for children not to come forward right away when being abused that way. Also someone doesn't just automatically get believed if they say they've been sexually assaulted.

-The people who commit the sexual assault, and those aware of it who encourage silence on the matter or actively cover it up are the problem....not the victims who have to suffer that sick behavior.


No argument except for your first.

I see the unfortunate victims as a part of the problem when they do not speak out.

Ask victim #2 if he thinks victim #1 should have laid a charge or take the money.

Ask victim 6 if victims 1,2,3 etc. should have laid a charge or taken the money.

I sympathise with all the victims but the latter ones would not exist if the former ones did the right thing and laid charges instead of taking the cash.

Regards
DL


I definitely see your point. The other side is: one of my past Aspie friends was not only molested by a priest, but also a camp counselor when he was 7 and for several years this went on. He was actually diagnosed just last year (in his late 30's) with MPD (multiple personality disorder) along with Aspergers. It was so traumatizing that he split personalities and I could see that when I talked to him. He also has never told his mother because of the humiliation. Fortunately, others spoke up with the counselor getting, if I remember, 2 yrs in prison and the priest only got house arrest. :roll: The priests doing this is one of the main reasons I left the church.


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12 Feb 2016, 6:01 pm

I think to say they are contributing to the problem is wrong. But I understand what you're getting at.

If your statement was "Abuse victims aren't helping the way they could by staying silent" I'd agree wholeheartedly.

You also aren't accounting for the embarrassment factor. It must be extremely embarrassing to admit that was done to you, even though you had zero to do with it. By bringing it to light they suffer the indignity twice. I'm sure most of them don't want to help, never asked to be part of any cause, and don't give a damn who else it happens to because they just want to move on with their damaged lives.

And experiencing that trauma who can blame them?

Today it's very common in our "See something, say something" world we associate silence with being as bad as perpetuating a crime. I feel this thinking is utterly ridiculous. I think it is everyone's right to mind their own business and there's nothing wrong with that. I am responsible for no one but myself. Someone else's problems don't have to be mine, I have enough of my own.



Last edited by beakybird on 12 Feb 2016, 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

heavenlyabyss
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12 Feb 2016, 6:03 pm

I didn't watch the movie but just keep in mind that sometimes threats are made behind the scenes. I don't like to second guess the reasons why victims don't forward. There are always implicit threats even if no explicit threats are made.

I can't really blame a victim for taking a bribe if they were too afraid to testify in the first place. I can't really blame them for just wanting the money either. You're placing an extremely high level of responsibility on someone who never asked for it, who probably just want to go on with their lives, since after all they are innocent.



GnosticBishop
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12 Feb 2016, 6:04 pm

0_equals_true wrote:
Responsibility is obviously a bad choice of word.

If more victims come forward, this obviously empowers other victims. However this is far from easy. They need to eb encouraged without prejudicing justice.

Unfortunately in very public case they do attract attention seekers and people with mental illness. This happened in some public cases in the UK. This only undermines confidence in the process. I feel bad for the victims.

I disagree with calling them responsible, but I also disagree with being overly simplistic about these issues. That doesn't help anyone.


When a person takes a payoff from a criminal to remain silent, and that criminal does another crime, then the first victim and primarily his family do hold some responsibility to the next victims.

They had the power to prevent the next rape and took the cash instead.

Regards
DL



beakybird
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12 Feb 2016, 6:11 pm

GnosticBishop wrote:

When a person takes a payoff from a criminal to remain silent, and that criminal does another crime, then the first victim and primarily his family do hold some responsibility to the next victims.

They had the power to prevent the next rape and took the cash instead.

Regards
DL


I disagree with this. Why is it their responsibility? They were a victim. ANYTHING they choose to do to help themselves, including trying to forget it ever happened and taking money to help them do that, is fine with me.

It's not their job to prevent future rapes. Their responsibility is to themselves to try and bear the trauma in the best way they can. End of story. I fail to see how it can be interpreted any other way.

Should the individuals who DO come out and fight be commended for helping prevent future crimes despite the reliving of the events and shame? 100% absolutely. They should be given medals. But it should not be the expectation to where if they choose not to it's looked down on. That's just unfair to someone who already had their fair share of unfairness at a very early age.



GnosticBishop
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12 Feb 2016, 6:30 pm

nurseangela wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
No I do not think victims themselves of sexual assault from religious leaders/role models are responsible for contributing to the pedophile problem.

-Rape/sexual assault is traumatizing especially for children, its actually very common for children not to come forward right away when being abused that way. Also someone doesn't just automatically get believed if they say they've been sexually assaulted.

-The people who commit the sexual assault, and those aware of it who encourage silence on the matter or actively cover it up are the problem....not the victims who have to suffer that sick behavior.


No argument except for your first.

I see the unfortunate victims as a part of the problem when they do not speak out.

Ask victim #2 if he thinks victim #1 should have laid a charge or take the money.

Ask victim 6 if victims 1,2,3 etc. should have laid a charge or taken the money.

I sympathise with all the victims but the latter ones would not exist if the former ones did the right thing and laid charges instead of taking the cash.

Regards
DL


I definitely see your point. The other side is: one of my past Aspie friends was not only molested by a priest, but also a camp counselor when he was 7 and for several years this went on. He was actually diagnosed just last year (in his late 30's) with MPD (multiple personality disorder) along with Aspergers. It was so traumatizing that he split personalities and I could see that when I talked to him. He also has never told his mother because of the humiliation. Fortunately, others spoke up with the counselor getting, if I remember, 2 yrs in prison and the priest only got house arrest. :roll: The priests doing this is one of the main reasons I left the church.


House arrest. Sigh.

I am pleased that you did the right thing.

Regards
DL



GnosticBishop
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12 Feb 2016, 6:37 pm

beakybird wrote:
I think to say they are contributing to the problem is wrong. But I understand what you're getting at.

If your statement was "Abuse victims aren't helping the way they could by staying silent" I'd agree wholeheartedly.

You also aren't accounting for the embarrassment factor. It must be extremely embarrassing to admit that was done to you, even though you had zero to do with it. By bringing it to light they suffer the indignity twice. I'm sure most of them don't want to help, never asked to be part of any cause, and don't give a damn who else it happens to because they just want to move on with their damaged lives.

And experiencing that trauma who can blame them?

Today it's very common in our "See something, say something" world we associate silence with being as bad as perpetuating a crime. I feel this thinking is utterly ridiculous. I think it is everyone's right to mind their own business and there's nothing wrong with that. I am responsible for no one but myself. Someone else's problems don't have to be mine, I have enough of my own.


I cannot agree with you.

As citizens, we all have responsibilities to each other and the law recognizes that.

If you mind your own business at the wrong time, or another minds his own business when he can help you out of a hard spot, then the law should come down on you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_rescue

Regards
DL



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12 Feb 2016, 6:45 pm

heavenlyabyss wrote:
I didn't watch the movie but just keep in mind that sometimes threats are made behind the scenes. I don't like to second guess the reasons why victims don't forward. There are always implicit threats even if no explicit threats are made.

I can't really blame a victim for taking a bribe if they were too afraid to testify in the first place. I can't really blame them for just wanting the money either. You're placing an extremely high level of responsibility on someone who never asked for it, who probably just want to go on with their lives, since after all they are innocent.


No one asks to be a victim of any crime but justice costs everyone something and if we all shirk our responsibilities and duties to each other, then we would not have any justice at all.

I put some wiki links you should read above and let me repeat what I put above just to accentuate it for you.


I see the unfortunate victims as a part of the problem when they do not speak out.

Ask victim #2 if he thinks victim #1 should have laid a charge or taken the money.

Ask victim 6 if victims 1,2,3 etc. should have laid a charge or taken the money.

I sympathise with all the victims but the latter ones would not exist if the former ones did the right thing and laid charges instead of taking the cash.

Regards
DL



GnosticBishop
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12 Feb 2016, 6:55 pm

beakybird wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:

When a person takes a payoff from a criminal to remain silent, and that criminal does another crime, then the first victim and primarily his family do hold some responsibility to the next victims.

They had the power to prevent the next rape and took the cash instead.

Regards
DL


I disagree with this. Why is it their responsibility? They were a victim. ANYTHING they choose to do to help themselves, including trying to forget it ever happened and taking money to help them do that, is fine with me.

It's not their job to prevent future rapes. Their responsibility is to themselves to try and bear the trauma in the best way they can. End of story. I fail to see how it can be interpreted any other way.

Should the individuals who DO come out and fight be commended for helping prevent future crimes despite the reliving of the events and shame? 100% absolutely. They should be given medals. But it should not be the expectation to where if they choose not to it's looked down on. That's just unfair to someone who already had their fair share of unfairness at a very early age.


To praise one for stepping up means that we recognize what the right thing to do is.

To then say that there is nothing wrong with not stepping up is quite foolish.

Perhaps that is why governments have put in p[lace laws like the ones I linked to above.

Perhaps you should read what those wiki pages say.

Think of yourself as victim 3. What do you see as your duty to a potential victim 4?

What do you see as the duty of victims 1 and 2?

If you get specific with those two questions, I think/hope you will land in my camp.

Regards
DL