Okay Josh Duggar....

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According to the Duggars, God is a judgmental tyrant who brings trials to people in retribution for what they have done or what is really in their hearts. Right now it's apparent to anyone who knows anything about Christianity that God is judging the Duggars. Anyone have any idea why God would judge them? We know why we, as humans are judging them, but according to the Bible, God is judging them through us and we are supposedly wretched sinners to them. Why would God cause all the sinners to attack the Duggars so? They are righteous and Josh has repented, and if you are a Christian, you understand since he did, it's right with God so, according to the Bible, God is not judging him for his past crimes that he confessed and repented. He has been redeemed through the blood of the lamb.

So what do you all think God is judging them for this time 'round?

And if you don't believe in any of this abracadabrary, try to put yourself in the place of someone who does and what do you think they would say, or would they just excuse good Christian folk like the Duggars and point the finger at the accusers and those who are judging, the media for example?

I see this as a lesson for the Duggars and have tried to tell them not to be so judgmental. I see this as God telling them not to be. It's the cause and effect I typed about in another thread. They are stuck in this bad karma because they cannot see how their words and actions affect others yet they will rationalize this and say the anecdote to this is to keep on judgin' and God will make it right in the end. If they stop judging, in their twisted minds, it will cause God to become even more enraged.

For starters, I'm not obsessed with the Duggars.

Second, I don't think this is a case of God punishing the Duggars for anything anyone has done. What I think is going on is that the Duggars for the moment have become victims of human nature.

It has nothing to do with God punishing them for anything. If you want to make this about God and His creation, the answer is simple. We live in a fallen creation. Part of the nature of that creation is that there are people within it who are fallen people ("sinners," as you eloquently put it). As such, they have rejected God and those who seek and follow God. And while they can't strike out at God directly, believers are convenient targets for hate. They are a large family, very successful independently, and have captured the attention and imagination of Western society. Heck, even I've appeared on a reality show, so I don't see that Warholian 15 minutes as really making anyone special. But they've had one for several years running. They're rock stars. And as such, they're held to a higher standard, perhaps unreasonably so, than the rest of us. So I don't look at this as God's judgment for having done something mysteriously wrong that we are yet unaware of. I look at it as the world's response to Godly yet fallible people who are on the right track.

The rest is really us judging them, which I think is much more relevant than what God thinks about all this (I reject pretty much your entire premise, btw). So if you care to read it, here's my commentary on everything else...

In our society, having large families has become a weird sort of no-no. People struggle to grasp that. I have three children and people would stop me all the time and ask me what the [expletive] I was doing trying to raise three kids I couldn't afford, like there's something wrong with me because I have three kids. "Don't you think two are enough?" And yes, you do get punished for having more than one or two children. My wife got fired twice for nothing more than choosing to reproduce. The Christian community has always been a significant part of my life, and we'd get these looks from people, like we're some kind of perverted sickos for having sex so much that we have 3 kids. I'm confused…I thought Christians were ok with married people living together and making babies. How is it I'm getting lumped together with those who aren't married? Or is it that sex is just never ok for anyone? We're just supposed to pop out our one baby and then cut off our offending members?

I love my fellow Christians, btw, so my point isn't to hate on my Christian brothers/sisters and those who are much older and much wiser than I am. I value them and their opinions. But my sexual habits aren't anyone's business, especially if I'm following the Bible and I've done nothing morally wrong. So why the hate when it comes to large families?

You might say I'm missing the point. No, I'm not. The Duggars are a large family, and large enough they've attracted a lot of attention. When people are doing the right thing AND (stress on AND) they are enormously successful, they're going to draw a lot of hate to themselves. That's just how it goes.

Take any billionaire in America in terms of success. You don't hear about how many jobs they create. You don't hear about the millions and billions they give to charities. You don't hear about the lives that have been saved in the third world because of the food and medicine they've sent out there, or how many schools and hospitals they've built. Oh no… You hear about all the employees making above minimum wage with benefits about how they're underpaid. You hear about all the unemployed in this country complaining because of all the jobs they're losing overseas to workers who are just glad to have jobs and willing to work cheaper. You hear about these evil rich people making all their money on the backs of the poor. We don't seem to give much thought to poor people who stay poor because of their own greed. We don't give any thought to rich people who became rich through their generosity.

And that's where you find the Duggars. They are a huge family--a rarity and, thus, a novelty that we find grotesquely fascinating. They are also successful, what we all want to be. On top of that, they're Christian. It's a combination that in our society inexorably inspires hatred. All the good they do or have done doesn't matter. We hate them so much because they're odd, big, successful, and Christian, that we'll look for any inconsistency, any whisper of scandal we might use to destroy them. They're so freaking squeaky-clean that it took something a KID did--a KID, when he was, what, 14/15 years old?--by touching siblings and another girl over their clothes. The family was made aware of what was going on and the situation was dealt with. Now, from my understanding, MOST of the time when juveniles commit crimes, convictions are pretty much stricken from any meaningful record once they hit majority age. Josh is, what…in his 30's now? So…WHY exactly is a stupid mistake he made as a young teenager even relevant now?

Good grief…compare with the stories Lena Dunham related in her book regarding her sister. OK, fine, so probably more of us than not, whether we want to admit it or not, have some really sick stories about things we did as kids. Nobody is crucifying Dunham over what she did to her sister. She even bragged about being a sexual predator, and she gets praised for writing her book. The Duggars never believed what happened with Josh was acceptable or proper, acted to correct Josh, recognized and finally reported his behavior as abuse, and apparently stopped the behavior. After all that, he gets demonized for something that's not even supposed to matter anymore.

Bottom line: Haters gonna hate.

For one thing, I'm not obsessed with them either. I only know the names of the oldest and the very youngest because they have been featured in nearly every episode I've watched. The rest, except Ma and Pa Duggar, the Grandmother, and the one cousin, are a blur. I couldn't match names to faces.

Furthermore, I don't believe God is judging them. From observing overly religious evangelicals, they believe God judges them through people, and since the Duggars seem to be borderline evangelical, they probably believe the same, so I was getting into their mindset. What is God judging them for now?

Josh Duggar has landed himself a gig in one of those reality shows called Catch A Predator where he hides in a house and plays "gotcha" with men who visit underage girls they talked to online. Maybe that's his way of doing penance, except he is getting paid so it won't count as community service, exactly.

Oh, and keep in mind, that's just what the Duggars have confessed to. You don't know for sure what has happened because it has never been investigated and Duggars want to protect their reputations. You cannot rely on them to be completely honest. Not saying they are being dishonest, just saying we don't know because it's all be brushed under the carpet and hidden away to preserve reputation. So you try to minimize it but you, or I, or anyone but them know for sure what the actual damage consists of.

My question is how does any kid start acting this way?

I think it's rather strange to accuse Lena Dunham of being a sexual predator when she started the so-called "molestation" at 7 years old. I don't think 7 year olds have very well-developed moral reasoning. What they are very good at though is imitation. I do find those passages from her book uncomfortable to read.

Why did Josh start acting this way? Do the parents deserve any responsibility? Does a 14-year old even deserve to be called a "sexual predator."

I believe in presumption of innocence until guilt is proven. If I want to accuse them of something, that's my problem. And it's literally not my place to judge, but rather something to be decided in the courts, something involving a judge, a prosecutor, a defense, and a jury.

But I'm not going to make up my mind about the Duggars solely on the basis of their success and fame, assuming that because they have the status they have that one misbehaving child necessarily indicates guilt elsewhere.

You can't punish parents for the crimes of the children. Some jurisdictions are trying stunts like that, and it's ultimately going to backfire. I think you can reasonable make parents responsible for enforcing curfews and truancy, but that's about it. But there is a fine line where a parent's behavior or lack of discipline actually enables bad behavior where you could say the parent was responsible. I'm unconvinced such was the case with the Duggars. If Josh was acting this way through imitation, there should be some indication that others in the family acted the same way or worse. And they wouldn't have been so forthcoming about it had there been some kind of systemic issue they were trying to cover up. In fact, the way in which it recently became public was because the police chief released their records. Josh was under 18 at the time those things happened, so there's the question of legality where it comes to releasing police records.

FYI: I grew up in a rural area around some pretty rough characters (my age) with some already messed up views regarding sex who'd brag about what they did with their cousins and nieces. Somehow I managed to make it through a year of college before I became sexually active. But I probably wouldn't have waited so long had I not made up my mind to stop hanging around kids who encouraged me to have sex at age 12 or 13. The thing is, any kid can become curious about the opposite sex, hear talk from other kids, and try fooling around. You're going to have kids as old as 14 or 15 think that touching a 5 year old doesn't really hurt anything. Being underaged doesn't magically make something right, and I'm not trying to justify it. My point is that things happen. If you're going to be consistent, basically nailing Josh for being a child predator after something he did when he was 14 and 15, then you have to forget all this garbage about wiping the slate clean after the magical age of 18 and treat all sexual misconduct, however slight it might appear to some, as a serious grownup offense with serious grownup penalties. If not, then leave the poor guy alone.

The Lena Dunham thing… There's no real difference between her actions and Josh's. They were underaged, they were fooling around. Everyone admits it's messed up. The difference is that Josh, given who he is, how he conducts himself as an adult, what he believes, and who his parents are/how he grew up, is held to a higher standard. He probably knew better. If Josh had come out saying something like "I was aware of my sexuality at a very early age, and my father beat me bloody that one time he caught me masturbating. Our house was so sexually repressed we couldn't wait for our parents to go out without us. The girls like to dance and striptease, and all we wanted was a little relief. In fact, it was fooling around with my sisters that made me realize I was gay. If only our parents could have just lightened up on this whole church and God thing, maybe things wouldn't have been so bad," then everyone would have felt sorry for him and been, like, all "shame on you, evil, horrible parents." But that's not what happened. He was taught from the beginning this was wrong and was disciplined for not stopping that behavior.

I think Lena Dunham's point was just to show she did messed up stuff as a kid…which honestly isn't unusual behavior. The difference is the long-term effects. Josh Duggar has a moral compass. Lena Dunham does not, not to mention she represents the opposite viewpoint. Josh is taken as a symbol of Christian fallibility, or what some would accuse as hypocrisy. So when it hits the fan, Josh is just another one of those evil, mean, abusive, deeply-closeted Christian conservatives, and he and his whole family are finally just getting what they've deserved all along…because you KNOW there's so much more they aren't telling us, right? But Lena has been open about sexuality all along. We should be free to explore our bodies and each others' bodies, and there's nothing wrong with that. And we need to be free from having a moral compass like those evil Christians. There's nothing wrong with it. And besides, even if there was something wrong here, Lena was only seven, so it's ok. Move along, people, nothing to see here.

I mean, it's disturbing either way you look at it. The only way you get demonized in the media for this kind of thing is if you actually do have a moral compass or some kind of high standard to hold to. You get sainted if you're battling against sexual repression and not being held to any form of morality.

One reason, although it might not be true in all cases, is Josh Duggar experienced abuse himself at some point. If he is homeschooled and kept innocent in this insular environment, how would he know about any of it? ATI keeps sex education at a minimum and it's not really based on anything but "keep yourself covered" and blame the person who experiences the abuse for it.

What show were you on?

I agree with most of AR's post. What I disagree with is the assertion that Josh Duggar has a strong moral compass. I don't like to just write him off as a "monster" without knowing all the facts but as a spectator I do have strong doubts that he has done a complete 180. I also think there are other Christian families more worthy of praise than this one. Also, there is some understandable concern for his own children by the public, considering his past. Unfortunately, stuff like this happens when you agree to go on a reality tv show. You open yourself up to scrutiny.

Psychologists who have examined Lena Dunham's case do not label her as a sexual abuser. I find her brand of "humor" rather poor taste however.

What does everyone think of Bill Gothard?

I find it rather coincidental that this family follows the teachings of a known sexual deviant. I also find it a little suspicious that the trooper they reported to was also a sexual deviant.

I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if the father was a sexual deviant himself. Maybe this is too much of a stretch, but I see this family as being a cult. I can't for the life of me understand why TLC thought it was ethical to put them on TV.

Just a couple of episodes of "Breaking Greenville" (TruTV). A good friend of mine wanted to write a musical. He happened to play a character on that show, mentioned stuff he does in his spare time, and they convinced him to ask me to co-write with him as part of the show. I'm not much more than an extra, but it's still pretty cool that I got tiny snippets of my music featured somewhere and that I got mentioned by name. lol I probably put 6 hours of my life on the set of that, had a BLAST. Seeing just how much of "reality" actually goes into a show like that is entertaining.

How do we know Josh DID experience abuse, though? Maybe I'm missing something, but this is all built on a lot of unsubstantiated assumptions.

It's really more that Josh has a moral compass at all. Lena, by comparison, does not.

This is also following a hidden false assumption, that is, that sexual deviancy will always follow you through life. I don't buy that. What we DO have evidence of is that most cases of convicted sex offenders end up being repeat offenders. So there's SOME truth to that, but it's not an absolute fact or law, nor does it apply to every case. If Lena isn't a sex abuser, then neither is Josh.

There probably are Christian families more worth of praise, I'll give you that much. The Duggars are representative of an oddity in our society, and their uniqueness is what has gotten so much attention. No doubt TLC investigated other families with similar "quirks." I happen to believe that the first commandment given to us by God is "be fruitful and multiply," and the fact that my wife insists on stopping after three kids makes me feel uncomfortable. Nevertheless, I do respect her wishes, especially given the fact that the last two pregnancies were risky. Can't win 'em all!

One thing you learn about stuff like this is not to believe the 180 stuff. No one knows if he has done a 180 and the Duggars aint telling. So we can't just assume he's reformed because hey, if he "sins" again he can always wash himself clean in the blood of the lamb and that's all he needs to do according to what these folks believe. This is a real belief system and yes they honestly believe it. They think the government and it's systems of help are godless and they are the true believers, the righteous ones and their way is how it should be for all. It's an us v. them mindset and the Duggars believe, without a shadow of a doubt, they are in the right and God is backing them, unlike the doomed USA government. Step into the mind of these folks. It's a certified trip!

Keep in mind, I don't believe this myself, it's what the Duggars believe and I have simply studied the Evangelicals and tried to understand why they behave the way they do and it's very real with them. These people live in fear a lot of the time and it motivates them to impose upon others.

No one really knows anything except for the Duggars and they aint saying at this point. They will be more determined to clam up after this baptism in fire they experienced recently, this whirlwind of judgment.

I typed he could have experienced abuse and considering how these kids have virtually no sex ed in their home school curriculum and they are really isolated from society and television, (they can imitate what they see on television and films, too and pick up behaviors from there) we have to try and figure out how Josh stumbled upon these behaviors. Most likely he has seen it from some source or he has experienced it himself. How else is he going to know anything about it? He would be completely clueless. People really do learn a lot from what goes on around them and what happens to them.
Most likely he saw something or experienced it without the knowledge to understand what was happening which tends to happen to victims of abuse. The experts say it tends to happen to the most naive, as in, those who have no source to become educated about their bodies and what sexual intercourse is, what is appropriate and what isn't.

Then there's the Duggar Idol, Bill Gothard, a mega rich wannabe prophet who the Duggars emulate reflected by how Josh immediately "resigned" his position at FRC when the scandal first aired. It's the same thing Gothard did during his IBLP scandal where he was accused by numerous young ladies of touching them inappropriately. So, this gives Josh the opportunity to feel closer to the family idol Bill Gothard because he did the same thing Gothard did and yes the Duggars stand by Gothard after the scandal. Not only do they stand by him, they revere him like nothing happened. Makes you wonder, was Josh around when Gothard was doing his touching? Is that where he got pointers?


And this big tropical storm off the coast of Texas could dump eight inches of rain on Tontitown in the next week...and we know floods are a big thing in the Bible for distributing God's wrath on the wicked but the Duggars will blame it on others. It will fit into their psychology of them being the righteous among the wicked and God is punishing the wicked who persecute the righteous Duggars over this scandal.