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AspieUtah
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14 Jul 2015, 10:55 am

blauSamstag wrote:
Ever read about COINTELPRO? The FBI even owned up to that program. You can go read about it at fbi.gov right now.

And, the CIA owned up to a lot of dangerous s**t during the U.S. Senate Church Committee ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee ) hearings of the 1970s. In the late 1970s, the U.S. Senate Inouye Committee ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra ) looked more deeply into the CIA MKUltra project after 20,000 documents were released during a Freedom of Information Act request.
The question we must ask ourselves is: Do we trust that the CIA really did abandon this research and related activities when it promised it would? Of course, not. The federal government and its CIA never mothballs anything.


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14 Jul 2015, 11:08 am

Mkultra? I hope they aren't still wasting money on that nonsense



AspieUtah
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14 Jul 2015, 11:30 am

blauSamstag wrote:
Mkultra? I hope they aren't still wasting money on that nonsense

I am sure that their assassination of CIA employee and bio-warfare scientist Frank Olson ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Olson ) in 1953 dealt a severe blow to their MKUltra "brain-trust," but they were already on the road to completing the project at that time, anyway. Since the costs of most of these "projects" were realized in the research, not the application, Olson's job was pretty much finished anyway. His complaints about it to superiors and his semi-retirement (no one ever retires from the CIA), made it an opportune time to shut him up forever. Unfortunately for the CIA, his death was a botched job. Even U.S. President Ford apologized to the family for his death during an Oval Office visit. THAT doesn't happen unless the White House knew their "work" was about to go public. Since then, it has.


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14 Jul 2015, 11:49 am

So are you proposing that the CIA still uses or experiments with drugs as an interrogation tool, or that some kind of electronic method ever actually worked?



AspieUtah
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14 Jul 2015, 12:02 pm

blauSamstag wrote:
So are you proposing that the CIA still uses or experiments with drugs as an interrogation tool, or that some kind of electronic method ever actually worked?

I am proposing that it is unlikely that the federal government and its intelligence agencies ever toss a costly project (effective or not) in the trash bin. There is always a use for the findings that are effective.


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14 Jul 2015, 12:16 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
So are you proposing that the CIA still uses or experiments with drugs as an interrogation tool, or that some kind of electronic method ever actually worked?

I am proposing that it is unlikely that the federal government and its intelligence agencies ever toss a costly project (effective or not) in the trash bin. There is always a use for the findings that are effective.


So which kind?

Also i am pretty sure our government is very much in the habit of throwing the baby out with the bath water.



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14 Jul 2015, 12:44 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
Back to the topic: There is now a Counter Jade Helm web site ( http://www.counterjadehelm.info/ ) which is published by an Arizona-based private tactical-firearm training facility. While not opposing the exercise or U.S. service members, the site will be monitoring and documenting all activity related to the exercise. Anyone can join the web site free of charge either for informational reasons or to help monitor activity in his or her community. It seems to me to be a great way to get local reports before the world's mainstream media gets their hands on "official" Pentagon news releases.

Something to consider joining....


I thought they weren't letting anyone (like the media) know what is going on. How are these people getting the info when media can't?


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14 Jul 2015, 1:21 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
Ever read about COINTELPRO? The FBI even owned up to that program. You can go read about it at fbi.gov right now.

And, the CIA owned up to a lot of dangerous s**t during the U.S. Senate Church Committee ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee ) hearings of the 1970s. In the late 1970s, the U.S. Senate Inouye Committee ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra ) looked more deeply into the CIA MKUltra project after 20,000 documents were released during a Freedom of Information Act request.
The question we must ask ourselves is: Do we trust that the CIA really did abandon this research and related activities when it promised it would? Of course, not. The federal government and its CIA never mothballs anything.


None of this proves Operation Jade Helm 15 is a malevolent conspiracy. What this and stuff like Operations Northwoods show is that the that idea that Operation Jade Helm 15 is a malevolent conspiracy is a plausible one and that the common view that people who are fearful of Operation Jade Helm 15 or 9/11 truthers for that matter are lunatics completely divorced from reality is false (Of course there are lunatics completely divorced from reality within these groups as with any group of people)


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14 Jul 2015, 1:22 pm

Example: saturn V program. All of it was destroyed.

Out at TOCDF there was a program working on an explosive method of destroying chemical munitions that include a rocket or explosive that was not designed to be disassembled.

Tens of millions were invested for over a decade. They were never able to systemize it. The other team figured out how to cut those munitions open like a can opener, safely. They kept working on the explosive option until all of those munitions were destroyed.

And the whole thing is expected to be disassembled, destroyed, forgotten.



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14 Jul 2015, 1:49 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
So are you proposing that the CIA still uses or experiments with drugs as an interrogation tool, or that some kind of electronic method ever actually worked?

I am proposing that it is unlikely that the federal government and its intelligence agencies ever toss a costly project (effective or not) in the trash bin. There is always a use for the findings that are effective.
what about the time that 12Bn$ got sent to Baghdad and the guys in charge of it pretty much shrugged after most of it vanished. does this count as a costly project?



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14 Jul 2015, 2:33 pm

nurseangela wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
Back to the topic: There is now a Counter Jade Helm web site ( http://www.counterjadehelm.info/ ) which is published by an Arizona-based private tactical-firearm training facility. While not opposing the exercise or U.S. service members, the site will be monitoring and documenting all activity related to the exercise. Anyone can join the web site free of charge either for informational reasons or to help monitor activity in his or her community. It seems to me to be a great way to get local reports before the world's mainstream media gets their hands on "official" Pentagon news releases.

Something to consider joining....

I thought they weren't letting anyone (like the media) know what is going on. How are these people getting the info when media can't?

The CounterJadeHelm.info web site provides a way for citizens themselves to report sighting of Jade Helm 15 activities. Remember that one of the primary goals of JH15 is to conduct its activities without being noticed by the public. This site will be a searchable repository of citizen reports as they are published in real time. The site is exactly what the JH15 coordinators would loathe. Ironically, it is entirely legal to do. But, you won't find a mainstream-media new reporter anywhere near the exercise. "Nothing to see here, Walter!"


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14 Jul 2015, 2:41 pm

They are called: White-Hat Hackers ! :D

nurseangela wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
Back to the topic: There is now a Counter Jade Helm web site ( http://www.counterjadehelm.info/ ) which is published by an Arizona-based private tactical-firearm training facility. While not opposing the exercise or U.S. service members, the site will be monitoring and documenting all activity related to the exercise. Anyone can join the web site free of charge either for informational reasons or to help monitor activity in his or her community. It seems to me to be a great way to get local reports before the world's mainstream media gets their hands on "official" Pentagon news releases.

Something to consider joining....


I thought they weren't letting anyone (like the media) know what is going on. How are these people getting the info when media can't?


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14 Jul 2015, 11:46 pm

I personally think that JH15 was inspired in part by events in Iraq and Afghanistan. Soldiers were walking in crowded areas in full camo fatigues and carrying M16's, driving around Sadr City in military Humvees, and they were pretty much sitting ducks. The rebels would bury explosives in potholes, wait for some Yanks to drive by, then press a button, and kaboom went the Americans. Soldiers were walking through crowded bazaars, and among the "civilians" would be rebels, and a rebel would sneak up to a Yank and blow half his head off with a concealed 9mm.

Stuff like this is why up to 75% of soldiers who served in the Sandbox have severe PTSD, they are totally fried from non-combat combat, from not knowing who is friend and who is foe. They come home and they are forever in "Iraq Mode" and are moving to the desert and setting up stockades with barbed wire and AK's, their very own Green Zone.

No, the Army isn't about to institute martial law. Texas and Utah have large flat desert areas, and very mountainous areas, sort of like Iraq and Afghanistan respectively. That moron Rumsfeld had our guys roaring into Baghdad and trying to win over hearts and minds while being an army too. Didn't work. Our guys didn't know zip about culture, language, ANYTHING. They didn't know how to signal for a car to stop at a checkpoint, basics like that. Nobody knew Arabic. Nobody knew anything about Islam.

Rumsfeld thought that shock and awe would simply steamroller the place. I for one am happy that DoD is finally taking asymmetrical warfare seriously after Rummy's "dead-enders" talk dismissing the threat posed by Iraqis. And if the militias are watching them, great, because that's what will happen in the next war, civilian groups of questionable loyalties will be on the lookout for Americans.



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15 Jul 2015, 1:13 am

AspieUtah wrote:
nurseangela wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
Back to the topic: There is now a Counter Jade Helm web site ( http://www.counterjadehelm.info/ ) which is published by an Arizona-based private tactical-firearm training facility. While not opposing the exercise or U.S. service members, the site will be monitoring and documenting all activity related to the exercise. Anyone can join the web site free of charge either for informational reasons or to help monitor activity in his or her community. It seems to me to be a great way to get local reports before the world's mainstream media gets their hands on "official" Pentagon news releases.

Something to consider joining....

I thought they weren't letting anyone (like the media) know what is going on. How are these people getting the info when media can't?

The CounterJadeHelm.info web site provides a way for citizens themselves to report sighting of Jade Helm 15 activities. Remember that one of the primary goals of JH15 is to conduct its activities without being noticed by the public. This site will be a searchable repository of citizen reports as they are published in real time. The site is exactly what the JH15 coordinators would loathe. Ironically, it is entirely legal to do. But, you won't find a mainstream-media new reporter anywhere near the exercise. "Nothing to see here, Walter!"


I went on that website you are talking about. I don't know what to make of it yet because there are no posts yet, but I'm open to finding out what it's about. Should be interesting.


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15 Jul 2015, 7:38 am

pezar wrote:
I personally think that JH15 was inspired in part by events in Iraq and Afghanistan. Soldiers were walking in crowded areas in full camo fatigues and carrying M16's, driving around Sadr City in military Humvees, and they were pretty much sitting ducks. The rebels would bury explosives in potholes, wait for some Yanks to drive by, then press a button, and kaboom went the Americans. Soldiers were walking through crowded bazaars, and among the "civilians" would be rebels, and a rebel would sneak up to a Yank and blow half his head off with a concealed 9mm.

Stuff like this is why up to 75% of soldiers who served in the Sandbox have severe PTSD, they are totally fried from non-combat combat, from not knowing who is friend and who is foe. They come home and they are forever in "Iraq Mode" and are moving to the desert and setting up stockades with barbed wire and AK's, their very own Green Zone.

No, the Army isn't about to institute martial law. Texas and Utah have large flat desert areas, and very mountainous areas, sort of like Iraq and Afghanistan respectively. That moron Rumsfeld had our guys roaring into Baghdad and trying to win over hearts and minds while being an army too. Didn't work. Our guys didn't know zip about culture, language, ANYTHING. They didn't know how to signal for a car to stop at a checkpoint, basics like that. Nobody knew Arabic. Nobody knew anything about Islam.

Rumsfeld thought that shock and awe would simply steamroller the place. I for one am happy that DoD is finally taking asymmetrical warfare seriously after Rummy's "dead-enders" talk dismissing the threat posed by Iraqis. And if the militias are watching them, great, because that's what will happen in the next war, civilian groups of questionable loyalties will be on the lookout for Americans.


That is a sensible and plausible explanation. Thank you. I'm going with this rather than "they are about to institute martial law".