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sly279
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21 Jul 2015, 9:25 pm

Janissy wrote:
sly279 wrote:
hairdresser refused to serve anti gay politician. the left, all hate news media praised them. they should have condemned them for discriminating. that is the one that sticks out the most it happen right around he same time the cake thing did.


I googled the story and was surprised that there were no legal repercussions for the hairdresser. It looks like the exact same type of discrimination (based on belief) that the KKK Grand Wizard won a case against a baker for. Perhaps the politician didn't want to file a lawsuit??

In any case you are right about the tone of the Left reportage. It is positive and in favor. The exceptions seem to be in the comments section to the articles and there seems to be a small minority of Left people not celebrating this. Count me in on that small Left minority. If discrimination is bad, it's bad across the board and it doesn't suddenly become good when it's your favored group that is doing the discriminating against your unfavored group.

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what you're saying is its stop doing your business and starve to death or go to hell?


That's not what I'm saying. They aren't going to go to hell and the law shouldn't be written as though that were a possibility. The claim from a business owner that they'll go to hell if they aren't allowed to discriminate is not legally defensible. Discriminating because of the other person's beliefs is also not legally defensible (I don't think, any lawyers out there?) and I kinda wish the politician had brought a lawsuit. This should not be encouraged by the Left. I have a suspicion that some members of the Left have conflated it with legal and defensible boycotting. Or maybe I'm being too generous because they're "my team". In any case, not ok. And as far as I know, not legal.

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from what I understand churches pay business taxes don't they?


They pay business taxes if they are running a business affiliated with the church. The examples google found for me were restaurants. I guess some churches have restaurants. I did not know that. They wouldn't be allowed to discriminate on who they serve in the restaurant. But the marriage ceremonies are separate from whatever business they run and not subject to the anti-discrimination laws that apply to business.

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I don't' think the gov should be able to force someone just because they own a business to break their religious laws. they believe for a fact that doing so they will be condemned to hell forever. you don't believe in hell so be it , but for those who do they don't' want to go there. what do you propose they do. put yourself in their shoes(idk that you can though)
its a very serious thing to them. its not simply they don't' like gays so they don't' want to serve them its if they do they go to hell. i bet they'd made a none wedding cake for gays.


This would be the government condoning the concept of hell legally which would violate separation of church and state. You can have your own beliefs and practice them. But you can't use those beliefs as a justification to discriminate, no matter how fervently you believe the discrimination is justified by your religion.


I would not support a baker who refused to bake a cake for gays, but I support their right to not violate their religious beliefs. its a complicated issue for me, where to things I support come to a cross with each other.

they believe they will go to hell and will do anything to avoid it. I will too. I don't want to go to hell.
it should be, the law is suppose to protect peoples religious beliefs as long as its not killing others or animals.
that's why is such a tough issue to me. in order to protect gay righs in this matter you have to violate another's religious rights. the left picks their group and the right picks their group. how do you decide, either way someones rights is violated. if you don't' believe in god I don't think you could understand this. you're see the Christians beliefs as just stupid made up stuff, but it's very real to us. I think there needs to be exceptions, like were made for hobby lobby with paying for abortions. yes this can possible be abused and such cases should be looked into to make sure it isn't , but its the fairest system.

thought churches had to account to their income and expenditures. like getting loans, building new buildings, donating money, paying for employees? the youth pastor at my sisters church had to pay taxes i think well he got a tax return.

what about that church that was told they have to preform gay weddings or stop preforming any weddings?

it would be the gov protecting ones religious beliefs like the 1st amendment says. doesn't say you can pick and take apart ones beliefs and chose which parts are protected.



Fugu
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21 Jul 2015, 9:39 pm

sly279 wrote:
I refuse to just lay down and be slaughter. god won't defends us from them, he gave all of us free will which includes them being able to attack us. anything that happens down here is up to us. so its on us to defend our rights and freedoms.
not sure what you mean by this
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businesses shouldn't be able to discriminate at all then. so if a guy walks in shirt less they should still have to serve him.
it should be no discrimination which means serving anyone and everyone regardless no excuses. if a guy walks in nude they should serve him at the same time call the cops. while he is breaking the law they shouldn't' discriminate by not serving him.
This is why you'll see "no shirt, no shoes, no service", it's legal because it's private property and also in violation of indecent exposure laws in the case of the nude guy.
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they shouldn't' be able to kick people out for disusing stuff they disagree with. so if a bunch of guys go in and talk about guns they shouldn't be allowed to ask them to leave. they paid and have every right to talk about whever they want to.
they can be asked to leave for any reason the owner wants
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it seems like only gays and blacks rights matter in this PC nation. why is there a all black channel, all black only colleges, all black movie channel. isn't that discrimination?
they're not public tv channels, so no, not really.
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what about businesses in Hawaii that make whites leave what they call their local only business? its either all equal or all free game. one can't pick which group should be protected and screw the others.
the prejudice of hawaiians is disgusting, but two wrongs don't make up a right.
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that hair dresser was never fined, they were praised by the left for doing the same thing the cake bakers were finded for.
being anti human rights isn't a protected group, despite your twisted logic. that hairdresser did nothing wrong in declining a client's business, I wouldn't want to take that person's money either.
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I will never run a business then. if I have to serve everyone even people who hate me. freak that. you should have some right of what to do with your business its your money spent on it you're the one that has everything to lose. if someone doesn't want to serve me because of my belief or gun ownership thats fine with me, its their lose, they won't get my money. I'll take it to another shop. that's how markets should work. theres a whole lot of gay people so thers going be people who want their money. other people have this happen and don't sue and make a big media craze out of it. there will always be discrimination of some kind at some small level as long as people are not the exact same. someone will treat them a little different for it. its human nature.
the hairdresser denying the NM governor was the free market in action
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look why can't white people wear Asian clothes? why is it wrong? isn't it discrimination to say they can't? how about how some car lots won't sell sports call to poorer people even if they have the money because they aren't sports car people. theres all kinds of discrimination I don't see people trying to fix it all.
it's not discrimination if a car dealership won't sell to people with bad credit, though if they have the cash to pay the car off it would be discrimination probably.
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also as for not paying the fine, its called civil disobedience. when you see a just law you break it, and take the punishment then later fight it in the courts after enough people get punished. remember the sit ins and the 60s same thing.

I say good for them. though personally I think its fine if gays get married, I don't think someone should be forced to help them marry if they don't want to. just as I don't think a gay should have to serve someone who hates gays.

also these people only pay attention to the old testament, so what Jesus would do doesn't matter. super Christians are more into the vengeful mean god of the old testament. the church I went to as a kid was more about the new testament. which is why I am more about loving and accepting others.
why are you defending the types of christians that would do this if you're not a 'super christian' as you put it?



sly279
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21 Jul 2015, 10:12 pm

so gays fefusing anti gays =free market.
super christian refusing gay = not fre market but discrimination

even thogh the two cases are the same. one person refusing to server someone based on beliefs.

you can't have it both ways if one is free market so is the other. you only say the one is free market because its your group.

but their businesses and you said businesses can't discriminate, so which is it? or do you only mean christiand and republican, or white businesses can't discriminate?

any reason ecept those the left values.

because I also believe and support freedom of choice.

you honestly seem to just be a left person who supports anything left and attacks anything deemed right. if the left does something ts ok, if the right does it its discrimination. that is so hypocritical.

lots of Christians are left.



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21 Jul 2015, 10:16 pm

sly279 wrote:
so gays fefusing anti gays =free market.
super christian refusing gay = not fre market but discrimination

even thogh the two cases are the same. one person refusing to server someone based on beliefs.

you can't have it both ways if one is free market so is the other. you only say the one is free market because its your group.

but their businesses and you said businesses can't discriminate, so which is it? or do you only mean christiand and republican, or white businesses can't discriminate?

any reason ecept those the left values.
being gay is a legally protected group, while being a bigot is not.



sly279
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21 Jul 2015, 10:18 pm

Fugu wrote:
sly279 wrote:
so gays fefusing anti gays =free market.
super christian refusing gay = not fre market but discrimination

even thogh the two cases are the same. one person refusing to server someone based on beliefs.

you can't have it both ways if one is free market so is the other. you only say the one is free market because its your group.

but their businesses and you said businesses can't discriminate, so which is it? or do you only mean christiand and republican, or white businesses can't discriminate?

any reason precept those the left values.
being gay is a legally protected group, while being a bigot is not.


only a bigot because you say so. you don't think you re a bigot i do. its the same case. those who you claim are bigots are just people who think different and so you label them a bigot to make them seem bad.

if they can't discriminate then neither can you. the law treats everyone equal unless their liberal......NOT. so that hair dresser should be fined and in jail.

all groups should be legally protected. not just the ones you like.



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21 Jul 2015, 10:23 pm

sly279 wrote:
Fugu wrote:
being gay is a legally protected group, while being a bigot is not.


only a bigot because you say so. you don't think you re a bigot i do. its the same case. those who you claim are bigots are just people who think different and so you label them a bigot to make them seem bad.

if they can't discriminate then neither can you. the law treats everyone equal unless their liberal......NOT. so that hair dresser should be fined and in jail.

all groups should be legally protected. not just the ones you like.

I label them bigots because they were actively acting to keep gays as second class citizens. why are you continuing to defend them? also, please stop calling me a bigot, it's a personal insult and adds nothing to the topic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_class
you're not going to see "anti-human rights organizations" in the above list, so no, they're not just 'think[ing] different'



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21 Jul 2015, 11:26 pm

sly279 wrote:
only a bigot because you say so. you don't think you re a bigot i do. its the same case. those who you claim are bigots are just people who think different and so you label them a bigot to make them seem bad.

if they can't discriminate then neither can you. the law treats everyone equal unless their liberal......NOT. so that hair dresser should be fined and in jail.

all groups should be legally protected. not just the ones you like.


If someone is treated as a second class citizen, no matter what they are, that's illegal. If those gun owners get kicked out of a business for talking about guns, they have the right to get a lawyer and take the business to court and have the matter settled legally.

If I were to run a bakery, I would bake a cake for whoever wanted one, but I would state that I would not write any hateful messages, such as "God Hates F**s" or "Down with Christians." I would not refuse service to someone because I know them to be a bigot, because who am I to judge? However, I do have the right not to write hateful/mean things.

God told us to love our neighbor, he never told us to desire special treatment for believing the way we do. This is not our world. We should not want to control it. With laws, we should separate from religion and look at what will help the whole. I cannot allow my beliefs to dictate how everyone around me should act, nor should they expect the same. That is equality. Christians have had, essentially, a place of power here in the US, and that power is being stripped away and I think it's a good thing.


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21 Jul 2015, 11:36 pm

kamiyu910 wrote:
If someone is treated as a second class citizen, no matter what they are, that's illegal. If those gun owners get kicked out of a business for talking about guns, they have the right to get a lawyer and take the business to court and have the matter settled legally.


I don't think that's true, only certain "protected classes" are illegal to discriminate against.


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21 Jul 2015, 11:38 pm

On the idea of evolution and being a Christian, if God decided to use evolution, then so be it. It doesn't change his sovereignty. I used to joke that God made the Big Boom by placing an atom in a microwave and watching it explode like a popcorn kernel. I really don't understand why people think there has to be a separation of God and science.

Which is something I've been pondering lately, with how science says humans first emerged from Africa around 600,000 years ago. It's weird to me that humans could have been around for so long and not developed a more advanced society. Look at all we've done in just 6000 years! What happened the other 595,000 years?
One of my friends and I have been joking around with ideas of how civilization advanced too far, inhabited Venus and Mars and destroyed them, came back to earth and had to start all over. My mom was speculating that maybe the story of Cain and Abel was about how the hunter/gatherers split from the farmers and went their own separate ways (where Seth is in this analogy I'm not sure).

I feel like a lot of people are too rigid in their thinking because for some reason, they feel like it'll erode their whole belief system if they suddenly believe in evolution. Or if they believe the earth to only be 6000 years old, to realize it's not. We have to remember who the bible was written for, and how would they be able to understand all the scientific stuff God used to make the earth? What if he just told them simplistic versions instead of wasting tons of tablets and scrolls in explaining in detail how he created the world. It wasn't, and isn't, important. It doesn't change anything at all how it was made. It's just our insatiable curiosity to know everything, and man do I want to know everything... I want to understand it all.

Which reminds me, thank you to the person who posted the link to how mythology came to be through fossils! I love reading things like that because it's like a puzzle piece being put into place. I've always pondered about how ancient gods like Zeus may have just be great warriors or kings whose stories grew bigger than they were, like how rumors spread around in our current cultures. Or like the classic fishing tale :D

"He caught a fish that was 6 feet long!"
"I heard it was 10 feet long!"
"It was a monstrous fish, had to be at least 20 feet!"
"And it took him three days to reel it in!"
"Roaring storm the entire time as well."

It's cool to think about ancient cultures weaving their stories around fossil remains.


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kamiyu910
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21 Jul 2015, 11:39 pm

Dox47 wrote:
kamiyu910 wrote:
If someone is treated as a second class citizen, no matter what they are, that's illegal. If those gun owners get kicked out of a business for talking about guns, they have the right to get a lawyer and take the business to court and have the matter settled legally.


I don't think that's true, only certain "protected classes" are illegal to discriminate against.


Well, I was thinking that since the KKK leader won, it's not always the case.


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22 Jul 2015, 12:32 am

evolution is complex and improbable, but god is even more complex and therefore even less likely.



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22 Jul 2015, 12:53 am

How is it improbable?


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kamiyu910
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22 Jul 2015, 1:05 am

cathylynn wrote:
evolution is complex and improbable, but god is even more complex and therefore even less likely.


The human eyeball is so complex, we still haven't fully mapped it to truly understand it. How is something improbable if it's complex?


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cathylynn
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22 Jul 2015, 1:13 am

kamiyu910 wrote:
cathylynn wrote:
evolution is complex and improbable, but god is even more complex and therefore even less likely.


The human eyeball is so complex, we still haven't fully mapped it to truly understand it. How is something improbable if it's complex?

imagine a jet plane being constructed by wind from parts in a junkyard. easier to imagine a lean-to might result from wind pushing plywood against a tree in the same junkyard. simpler = more probable, especially in a universe tending toward entropy.



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22 Jul 2015, 1:15 am

cathylynn wrote:
evolution is complex and improbable, but god is even more complex and therefore even less likely.


I've always sided with Charles Darwin's own summary: "All the organic beings which have ever lived on this earth have descended from some one primordial form, into which life was first breathed by the Creator".

Although admittedly I've never done too much extensive research on the subject, I've always been confused as to why promoting evolution is inherently seen as an affront to or even connected to belief in a God. When Galileo discovered that the Earth revolves around the sun, the church condemned his findings as utter heresy based on their literal interpretation of such vague verses as Eccl. 1:5 ("The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises."), but eventually they realized they could accept science as fact without compromising Biblical word, only their interpretation. The shocking anti-scientific sentiment of most conservative Evangelicals today is embarrassing; when people in the 17th century were more culturally progressive than you, odds are you need to rethink your theology.



kamiyu910
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22 Jul 2015, 1:36 am

cathylynn wrote:
kamiyu910 wrote:
cathylynn wrote:
evolution is complex and improbable, but god is even more complex and therefore even less likely.


The human eyeball is so complex, we still haven't fully mapped it to truly understand it. How is something improbable if it's complex?

imagine a jet plane being constructed by wind from parts in a junkyard. easier to imagine a lean-to might result from wind pushing plywood against a tree in the same junkyard. simpler = more probable, especially in a universe tending toward entropy.


I think I might have misunderstood your original statement. I thought you were saying God is improbable, as in you don't believe in him, but you're saying the opposite, right?


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