Does the right to free speech stop at schoolhouse door?

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jimservo
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15 Apr 2007, 6:38 pm

Quote:
It can hardly be argued that either students or teachers shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate," Justice Abraham Fortas wrote in an opinion joined by four other members of the Court. "In our system," he argued, "state-operated schools may not be enclaves of totalitarianism. School officials do not possess absolute authority over their students."


(source, which is just something I grabbed randomly to get the quote, which is "pithy" to quote Bill O'Reilly)

I believe the later disgraced Justice Fortas was and those who joined his opinion were probably incorrect legally and that this decision certain led to much havoc in the public schools. Discuss!

Resources:
Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District
(decision was 7-2, Chief Justice Warren voted with the majority and with Brennan, Douglas, Marshall, Warren, and White. Dissenting were Black and Harlan.
Syllabus
Justice Abe Fortas' Opinion
Justice Potter Stewart's Concurrence
Justice Byron White's Concurrence
Justice Hugo Black's Dissent
Justice John Harlan's Dissent

(sigh)...Wikipedia entry

ADDENDUM: Hmm...maybe I shouldn't talk in this topic and should let it go free flowing.

EDIT: I screwed up the topic title. It is sort of fixed.

I'll look around for other stuff.

ADDENDUM II: No resources yet, but did you know there was two Supreme Court Justices named John Marshall Harlan? And by what crazy chance do you think they are not related to one another?

...Well, we can't have everything (wouldn't that have been weird?). Anyway, John Marshall Harlan grandfather and John Marshall Harlan grandson both seem like likable guys at least according to me. The former is more famous for his lone dissent in Plessy v. Ferguson that Clarence Thomas has made reference to.



Last edited by jimservo on 15 Apr 2007, 10:02 pm, edited 4 times in total.

VesicaPisces
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15 Apr 2007, 6:48 pm

No? :/


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Todd489
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15 Apr 2007, 7:33 pm

My school's had a crapload of issues with this. Some girls (honor students btw) got threatened with suspension for wearing little colored bracelets, like the kind you'd buy in one of those plastic bubble machines for a quarter. Apparently they were used in some circles to represent sexuality and stuff, which the girls were unaware of. The courts ruled that the suspension would be lifted if the girls stopped wearing the bracelets.

THEY WERE LITTLE COLORED BRACELETS. THE DIDN'T EVEN HAVE ANYTHING WRITTEN ON THEM.

Image

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Sure.

But what's really strange about my school is that people wear Jesus shirts and Christian paraphenalia all the time and noone says anything.

Image

So basically it's alright to piss all over the whole "Seperation of Church and State" thing, but if you wear a 25 cent bracelet that some 12-year old a***hole on the internet claims signifies that you like it up the ass, well that's just unacceptable.



richardbenson
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15 Apr 2007, 8:24 pm

first lets get the government to not run public schools. problem fixed



Awesomelyglorious
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15 Apr 2007, 8:41 pm

Technically I don't view an absolute right as existing here for students. For one thing, children really do not have rights other than that of being treated properly(not being abused and all that stuff). That is why your mom can tell you not to cuss in her presence and enforce that. When at school, the school ultimately has a level of authority with some similarity to that of the parent. Some school rules are stupid and those should be dealt with, some aspects of school education itself are also unliked, however, the students in school really do not have rights.



ahayes
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15 Apr 2007, 9:30 pm

Todd489 wrote:
Image

So basically it's alright to piss all over the whole "Seperation of Church and State" thing, but if you wear a 25 cent bracelet that some 12-year old a***hole on the internet claims signifies that you like it up the ass, well that's just unacceptable.


THE TERM "SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE" SHOWS UP NOWHERE IN THE FIRST AMENDMENT ITSELF.

James Madison wrote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, ...


AND FROM WHAT I CAN READ IT WOULD BE UNCONSTITUTIONAL TO MAKE IT ILLEGAL.



skafather84
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15 Apr 2007, 9:33 pm

ahayes wrote:
Todd489 wrote:
Image

So basically it's alright to piss all over the whole "Seperation of Church and State" thing, but if you wear a 25 cent bracelet that some 12-year old a***hole on the internet claims signifies that you like it up the ass, well that's just unacceptable.


THE TERM "SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE" SHOWS UP NOWHERE IN THE FIRST AMENDMENT ITSELF.

James Madison wrote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, ...


AND FROM WHAT I CAN READ IT WOULD BE UNCONSTITUTIONAL TO MAKE IT ILLEGAL.


http://members.tripod.com/%7Ecandst/tnp ... adison.htm



dexkaden
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15 Apr 2007, 9:42 pm

richardbenson wrote:
first lets get the government to not run public schools. problem fixed


Yes, it is pretty interesting how many problems are solved when you take the government---and its monopoly of force---out of the equation. If private schools were available, parents could choose where to send their kids. If the education they receive is sub-par, then parents won't send their kids to that school, and the market will adjust accordingly. It is very simple principle, but one that not everyone grasps and/or believes in.


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ahayes
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15 Apr 2007, 10:12 pm

skafather84 wrote:
ahayes wrote:
Todd489 wrote:
Image

So basically it's alright to piss all over the whole "Seperation of Church and State" thing, but if you wear a 25 cent bracelet that some 12-year old a***hole on the internet claims signifies that you like it up the ass, well that's just unacceptable.


THE TERM "SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE" SHOWS UP NOWHERE IN THE FIRST AMENDMENT ITSELF.

James Madison wrote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, ...


AND FROM WHAT I CAN READ IT WOULD BE UNCONSTITUTIONAL TO MAKE IT ILLEGAL.


http://members.tripod.com/%7Ecandst/tnp ... adison.htm


hmm. NONE of that shows up in the actual first amendment.

That only describes what may be some of the motive behind it. (but not all, as we see the "no prohibiting the free exercise thereof" part and no discussion as to why that's there)



dexkaden
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15 Apr 2007, 10:19 pm

"Separation of church and state" is a common metaphor that is well recognized. Equally well recognized is the metaphorical meaning of the church staying out of the state's business and the state staying out of the church's business. Because of the very common usage of the "separation of church and state phrase," most people incorrectly think the phrase is in the constitution. The phrase "wall of separation between the church and the state" was originally coined by Thomas Jefferson in a letter to the Danbury Baptists on January 1, 1802. His purpose in this letter was to assuage the fears of the Danbury, Connecticut Baptists, and so he told them that this wall had been erected to protect them. The metaphor was used exclusively to keep the state out of the church's business, not to keep the church out of the state's business.

The constitution states, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Both the free exercise clause and the establishment clause place restrictions on the government concerning laws they pass or interfering with religion. No restrictions are placed on religions except perhaps that a religious denomination cannot become the state religion.

However, currently the implied common meaning and the use of the metaphor is strictly for the church staying out of the state's business. The opposite meaning essentially cannot in be found in the media, the judiciary, or in public debate and is not any part of the agenda of the ACLU or the judiciary.

This, in conjunction with several other factors, makes the "separation of church and state" metaphor an icon for eliminating anything having to do with Christian theism, the religion of our heritage, in the public arena. One of these factors is the use of the metaphor in place of the actual words of the constitution in discourse and debate. This allows the true meaning of the words in the constitution to be effectively changed to the implied meaning of the metaphor and the effect of the "free exercise" clause to be obviated. Another factor facilitating the icon to censor all forms of Christian theism in the public arena is a complete misunderstanding of the "establishment" clause.


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DejaQ
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15 Apr 2007, 11:05 pm

Media sensationalism gets to the heads of the administration. There are gangs, ne'er-do-wells, and mass murdering youngsters everywhere. Youths can't be trusted. :roll:


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AlexandertheSolitary
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15 Apr 2007, 11:13 pm

dexkaden wrote:
"Separation of church and state" is a common metaphor that is well recognized. Equally well recognized is the metaphorical meaning of the church staying out of the state's business and the state staying out of the church's business. Because of the very common usage of the "separation of church and state phrase," most people incorrectly think the phrase is in the constitution. The phrase "wall of separation between the church and the state" was originally coined by Thomas Jefferson in a letter to the Danbury Baptists on January 1, 1802. His purpose in this letter was to assuage the fears of the Danbury, Connecticut Baptists, and so he told them that this wall had been erected to protect them. The metaphor was used exclusively to keep the state out of the church's business, not to keep the church out of the state's business.

The constitution states, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Both the free exercise clause and the establishment clause place restrictions on the government concerning laws they pass or interfering with religion. No restrictions are placed on religions except perhaps that a religious denomination cannot become the state religion.

However, currently the implied common meaning and the use of the metaphor is strictly for the church staying out of the state's business. The opposite meaning essentially cannot in be found in the media, the judiciary, or in public debate and is not any part of the agenda of the ACLU or the judiciary.

This, in conjunction with several other factors, makes the "separation of church and state" metaphor an icon for eliminating anything having to do with Christian theism, the religion of our heritage, in the public arena. One of these factors is the use of the metaphor in place of the actual words of the constitution in discourse and debate. This allows the true meaning of the words in the constitution to be effectively changed to the implied meaning of the metaphor and the effect of the "free exercise" clause to be obviated. Another factor facilitating the icon to censor all forms of Christian theism in the public arena is a complete misunderstanding of the "establishment" clause.


Thank you for this erudite clarification. With regard to the instance cited earlier in this topic, the wearing of crucifixes (or hijabs, yamulkes, etc.; in France they are seeking to ban all religious insignia in schools in an egalitarian, though perhaps not libertarian or fraternal, fashion) personally I do not see the issue with coloured bracelets.

The interpretation of something outside its original context can lead to dangerous distortions. To prevent the interference of the State in Church business perhaps provides a useful counter to the Act of Supremacy whereby the monarch of England, now of the whole United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland was declared Supreme Head of the Church, and the various Acts of Uniformity which created an established form of worship and ecclesiastical polity. Conversely, in other contexts such as pre-reformation England the balance might be out in other ways through the clergy being exempt from the regular laws and subject to special ecclesiastical courts. Sorry to bring in points that are not particularly relevant to the case currently under discussion; nevertheless perhaps some may find them interesting.

Upon reflection, perhaps for individuals to be wearing a representation of a Roman implement of execution that was used against their Savviour and Lord as mere jewelery IS rather more offensive than coloured bracelets, but I would not wish to legislate here; if someone considers this an important statement of faith and standing up and being counted, this is perhaps a position of integrity. The Cross, however unpalatable, is central to the Christian faith, so its being worn may be one expression of solidarity, though I would have thought that there were more important ways; no doubt these are attended to likewise. Feel free to disregard my meandering thoughts.


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