Those who voted to leave due to immigration enabled racism

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Mootoo
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28 Jun 2016, 6:12 pm

As I assume people (in the UK) have heard by now, hate crime is on the rise https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ave-brexit - are you happy with that? Maybe not exactly happy, maybe no one condones this, but of course, UKIP fully enabled it with intention and 'Britain First' has become so energized it will probably kill a few more MPs who even dare to help the most needy, because, well, they got away with it.

What other reason did people have to vote leave, at any rate? Honestly, I was trying to see what motivations may not enable racism, but I'm not sure anyone voted for anything but that issue... sovereignty? (aka dictatorships of the bumbling blond or the other heartless iron 'lady'...) - perhaps trade issues? Surely racism can't be connected to that. But, I doubt anyone wanted to fully leave the common market just to get inferior deals ten years away...

So... anyone can think of any? Mind you, I'm not imagining a whole load of old people who voted leave being very active and violently racist (well, age affects activity)... just as I suppose there aren't presumably many involved in 'EDL', although old people can sometimes be bald too... point being, old people may just be ideologues, the enablers, not doers, kind of like the Ayatollah of closed-mindedness (and, hm, perhaps since history repeats maybe they just want another war (whether internal or otherwise) to get the adrenaline going one last time?) - kind of like how they think on the other side of the pond they'll survive a machine-gun Maxican standoff even if all they had is a pistol... or perhaps not Mexican with that other bumbling golden poop, and if they think they have race problems *now*... imagine in a year's time, it can be a race civil war, probably with his wig standing as a referee (vanity knows no bounds).



shlaifu
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28 Jun 2016, 6:34 pm

Old people with college degrees firing up young people without college degrees. It has always been like that.

Sadly, a guardian article today about how brexit is good for the rest of the EU made sense, as the rest can now reform without 52% of the UK being talked into refusing changes.

The UK always felt pretty racially divided to me, but I thought for a european country, it was doing great. The other european countries barely have racial minorities, so it's harder to see how racist they actually are.
Sadly, now racists can feel like good citizens, in the UK.
Something Pegida and the FPO are working on in german-speaking europe.

I'm a bit scared this is going to blow up completely unnecessarily.


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Mikah
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28 Jun 2016, 7:02 pm

As I said in the other thread, conditions create leaders as much as leaders create conditions. If it wasn't UKIP, or Farage or Brexit, it would have been someone or something else at another time. As conservatives like myself have been warning for decades this was INEVITABLE. Making racism, culturalism unfashionable or illegal does not erase the underlying xenophobic feelings, it's like trying to erase hunger by not talking about it.

Do I condone the behaviour? No, it's impolite. But we may look back on this era and thank the powers that be that this happened sooner rather than later. Having dog turds thrown at your door and being told to go home is nothing compared to how bad it could be and has been in the recent past - and likely will be once again in continental Europe if the EU insists on more mass immigration of the "other".


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Fnord
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28 Jun 2016, 7:21 pm

Quote:
Those Who Voted To Leave Due To Immigration XEnabled RacismX Were Racist.
There. I corrected it for you. You're welcome!

:D



TheSpectrum
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28 Jun 2016, 7:33 pm

OP, is this thread another thinly veiled attempt to advocate voter suppression by verging on Godwin's Law?
You've already made enough topics about this in this subforum.

I understand you're passionate about it, but why don't you focus your energy into making one sensibly argued thread, rather than constantly ranting off and labelling people or attaching guilt by association? I also don't appreciate the ageism. The people in their 60's-80's who have lived/thought through wars (don't forget WW1 and 2 aren't the only wars) and have paid taxes all their lives for the benefit of the kids and students you seem to love so much, have earned a democratic right to vote.

Also, comparing the aged to Iranian leaders in a negative context somewhat contradicts your narrative about the Xenophobia and racism that you seem to be projecting onto Leave voters.


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gingerpickles
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28 Jun 2016, 7:43 pm

You are a very single minded young man.
Honestly, have you made any threads about ANYTHING positive?

How about trying this. Adapt and survive.
Go an BE it.
Pay forward.
Show by example.
Take time in your community canvassing for your next election.
Find electives you feel good to vote for an trust (lel gl on them doing as they say)
Babysit for free to some poor immigrant family that need someone to work.
Do you want to have Visas and travel, Mr "world citizen". Then start applying now for them. Where you want to go.
Petition your govt representatives on WHAT COMES NEXT.
Plan ahead for if Art 50 is enacted.
How do you want Visas treated. How you want the healthcare saved or restructured. How you want to combat welfare fraud and waste that gets those crabby old conservative rioting. How about immigration quotas, fiscal projection of balance population to retirement and health. Welfare. For everyone? Who pays


BTW on your old people cant vote... moment of no voting is moment of no taxation on their pay and immediate retirement whatever age you are favoring the moment. wonder how many programs will work after that.
Get in organization. Become a politician and work from the inside.

instead of being a whiner or destructive rioter be a doer, then that "Legacy" of the killed MP is fulfilled


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The_Walrus
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29 Jun 2016, 4:30 am

shlaifu wrote:
Old people with college degrees firing up young people without college degrees. It has always been like that.

Sadly, a guardian article today about how brexit is good for the rest of the EU made sense, as the rest can now reform without 52% of the UK being talked into refusing changes.

The UK always felt pretty racially divided to me, but I thought for a european country, it was doing great. The other european countries barely have racial minorities, so it's harder to see how racist they actually are.
Sadly, now racists can feel like good citizens, in the UK.
Something Pegida and the FPO are working on in german-speaking europe.

I'm a bit scared this is going to blow up completely unnecessarily.

I don't feel like this country is especially racially divided. Ethnic minorities tend to be concentrated in inner city areas with low quality housing because those are affordable, but other than that I'm not sure there's much of a divide these days. But then I'm white so take that with a pinch.

I'm fairly sure France is actually more diverse than Britain due to migration from Francophone Africa. Belgium and Germany are also racially diverse countries. Beyond that, I think most countries are about as diverse in their capitals as Britain is on average.

Anyway, answering the OP: yes, the Leave vote seems to have legitimised racism. Whilst Farage's lot have to take some responsibility for that, I think the Leave and Remain campaigns also could have done with emphasising that Leave would not be a "racism is OK" signal.



ASPartOfMe
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29 Jun 2016, 6:59 am

I think here in the U.S.A. if Trump is elected you will aslo get an increase temporaraly or long term in bias and ableist bullying and attacks.

If Hillary is elected especially if it is a Democratic landslide I think there will be an increase SJW bullying and attacks


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CommanderKeen
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29 Jun 2016, 8:00 am

Mootoo wrote:
As I assume people (in the UK) have heard by now, hate crime is on the rise https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ave-brexit - are you happy with that? Maybe not exactly happy, maybe no one condones this, but of course, UKIP fully enabled it with intention and 'Britain First' has become so energized it will probably kill a few more MPs who even dare to help the most needy, because, well, they got away with it.

What other reason did people have to vote leave, at any rate? Honestly, I was trying to see what motivations may not enable racism, but I'm not sure anyone voted for anything but that issue... sovereignty? (aka dictatorships of the bumbling blond or the other heartless iron 'lady'...) - perhaps trade issues? Surely racism can't be connected to that. But, I doubt anyone wanted to fully leave the common market just to get inferior deals ten years away...

So... anyone can think of any? Mind you, I'm not imagining a whole load of old people who voted leave being very active and violently racist (well, age affects activity)... just as I suppose there aren't presumably many involved in 'EDL', although old people can sometimes be bald too... point being, old people may just be ideologues, the enablers, not doers, kind of like the Ayatollah of closed-mindedness (and, hm, perhaps since history repeats maybe they just want another war (whether internal or otherwise) to get the adrenaline going one last time?) - kind of like how they think on the other side of the pond they'll survive a machine-gun Maxican standoff even if all they had is a pistol... or perhaps not Mexican with that other bumbling golden poop, and if they think they have race problems *now*... imagine in a year's time, it can be a race civil war, probably with his wig standing as a referee (vanity knows no bounds).

Another thread, really? What do you do all day? Honestly, why don't you try and apply for a job at the EU? You are all but bending over for them at this point.



visagrunt
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29 Jun 2016, 9:26 am

Well you start from a position of truism. Racists voted for racism and that prompted racists to commit racist acts.

But you don't acknowledge a key principle: In the law of England and Wales, in the law of Scotland and in the law of Northern Ireland, people have the right to freedom of thought, belief and opinion. Couple that with the freedom to vote by secret ballot, and that is all you need. A citizen is free to be a racist and is free to vote from a position of racist bias.

And there's and end to it. The law steps in where the freely held beliefs of citizens may tend to harm others, but the fundamental principles of freedom of thought, belief and opinion and off universal, secret ballot cannot be tampered with. We can only seek to mitigate the consequences.


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29 Jun 2016, 12:22 pm

I didn't personally leave because of immigration. And in any case, we in UKIP have never even hinted that immigrants, EU/EEA/CH or otherwise, should face hostility, discrimination, abuse or attacks. We absolutely would not want any legal resident of the UK, EU or otherwise, to be sent home (as long as they have not committed serious crimes in Britain). EU/EEA/CH citizens living here now are more than welcome to stay permanently, and we hope that British citizens in other EU/EEA/CH countries living there legally will similarly not face any difficulties in staying in the countries they have chosen.

The people responsible for the few xenophobic - 'racist' is the wrong word, not that it makes it any better - abuse and attacks (it's mostly just dickheads mouthing off on Facebook and Twitter) that there have been since the referendum should be stamped on, violently, with Dr. Martens. Hard.

That said, I rather think that this is a small rise in attacks, concentrated in certain specific areas. The vast majority of areas have not seen a rise in xenophobic abuse or attacks on, for instance. I saw a Polish lass interviewed on TV recently and, as she said, she reads a lot of stuff on the Internet about large numbers of people being massively bigoted towards foreigners but she found that it doesn't reflect real life. I suspect many other Poles feel the same. I feel the small rises in people acting the maggot will quite quickly die down.



Last edited by Tequila on 29 Jun 2016, 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tequila
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29 Jun 2016, 12:26 pm

visagrunt wrote:
Racists voted for racism and that prompted racists to commit racist acts.


Oh, piss off.

Racists thought they voted for racism because they're stupid. The vote wasn't about legitimising racism - the vote was about leaving a political union. A majority voted for that.

I have to wonder just how much of this is down to the referendum (it seems to be the Remain camp really playing this up) and how much it is down to a few stupid, xenophobic people being stupid and xenophobic.

A cursory Google search would show them that nobody - but nobody - is being sent home. EU/EEA/CH citizens living here will have all the same rights and freedoms after Brexit than they did before.

As I have said here and elsewhere - people that actually act the xenophobic twat to other people because they think they are foreign need to be dealt with swiftly and harshly.



Last edited by Tequila on 29 Jun 2016, 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tequila
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29 Jun 2016, 12:31 pm

Fnord wrote:
Quote:
Those Who Voted To Leave Due To Immigration XEnabled RacismX Were Racist.
There. I corrected it for you. You're welcome!

:D


I don't doubt that there were some xenophobic, stupid, religiously intolerant (i.e. we can send all the Muslims back) and racist examples of people on the Leave side. But I've read other people saying that their families voted Remain for explicitly racist reasons (i.e. better white Europeans than blacks).

There were bigots and idiots on both sides, much like there are bigots in all political parties.



Fnord
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29 Jun 2016, 12:50 pm

Tequila wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Quote:
Those Who Voted To Leave Due To Immigration XEnabled RacismX Were Racist.
There. I corrected it for you. You're welcome!
I don't doubt that there were some xenophobic, stupid, religiously intolerant (i.e. we can send all the Muslims back) and racist examples of people on the Leave side. But I've read other people saying that their families voted Remain for explicitly racist reasons (i.e. better white Europeans than blacks). There were bigots and idiots on both sides, much like there are bigots in all political parties.
Spot On! And I'm sure that there were voters in both camps who thought that they were doing the right thing, regardless of the outcome.



visagrunt
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29 Jun 2016, 2:29 pm

Tequila wrote:
visagrunt wrote:
Racists voted for racism and that prompted racists to commit racist acts.


Oh, piss off.

Racists thought they voted for racism because they're stupid. The vote wasn't about legitimising racism - the vote was about leaving a political union. A majority voted for that.


You have no window into the souls of your fellow voters. As far as you, or I or anyone knows, some racists--and let me be clear, they are a miniscule minority of "Leave" voters--may have been voting precisely because they want to legitimate racism.

And it bears noting that NO voter is stupid for voting for what they believe in. A racist voting for a racist motivation is just as valid as you voting for your motivation or me voting for mine. That is the very essence of a free society.

Quote:
I have to wonder just how much of this is down to the referendum (it seems to be the Remain camp really playing this up) and how much it is down to a few stupid, xenophobic people being stupid and xenophobic.


The fact remains, though, that racists will view this as a victory. It is not coincidence that one of their number showed up in a "Now we've won Send Them Back" shirt on Friday morning. While he doesn't represent most Leave voters, I'm not prepared to accept that he is a unique specimen.

Quote:
A cursory Google search would show them that nobody - but nobody - is being sent home. EU/EEA/CH citizens living here will have all the same rights and freedoms after Brexit than they did before.


Again, you can't know that. Brexit necessarily involves the repeal of the legislation that took Britain into the EU, and with that all the statutory migration rights that EU and EEA citizens hold in Britain. Those will be replaced by whatever statutory arrangements Parliament might choose to enact to replace them.

Given that the Leave campaign was predicated on placing limits on free movement of people, I think it's a stretch to assert that Britain will agree to unlimited movement of EU and EEA citizens in a future trade agreement with Europe.

Quote:
As I have said here and elsewhere - people that actually act the xenophobic twat to other people because they think they are foreign need to be dealt with swiftly and harshly.


That does not alter the reasonable belief that they will be emboldened by the referendum result.


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29 Jun 2016, 2:52 pm

Well, when the majority of terrorists are Muslim and come from Muslim countries; what do you expect? Muhammad raped kids. Wow, the religion of peace. If people were sh** talking Scientology, no one would bat an eye. It only comes down to how old Islam is and that there are Islamic countries; where they kill gays. If you don't want people to hate Islam, maybe you should try telling the terrorists to stop killing and raping people. Good luck with that.