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AspE
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13 Jul 2016, 9:09 am

BLM is a national social justice movement, not a bunch of nannies that are able to control everyone in a crowd when emotions are high. But go ahead and throw the whole thing down the toilet because someone threw something.



L_Holmes
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13 Jul 2016, 9:18 am

AspE wrote:
BLM is a national social justice movement, not a bunch of nannies that are able to control everyone in a crowd when emotions are high. But go ahead and throw the whole thing down the toilet because someone threw something.

Someone also did a shooting, with the specific intent of killing white police. But conveniently ignore that; I mean, it's just one guy, so who cares? And besides, there's simply NO WAY this had ANYTHING to do with Black Lives Matter inspiring tons of hatred for white cops. No way the two are linked.


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13 Jul 2016, 9:31 am

AspE wrote:
BLM is a national social justice movement, not a bunch of nannies that are able to control everyone in a crowd when emotions are high. But go ahead and throw the whole thing down the toilet because someone threw something.

I get that there should be accountability but to both criticise and threaten the cops then ask for their help at the same time is madness.


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AspE
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13 Jul 2016, 9:31 am

They aren't. Both BLM and the Dallas shooter were reactions to the news.



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13 Jul 2016, 9:33 am

TheSpectrum wrote:
AspE wrote:
BLM is a national social justice movement, not a bunch of nannies that are able to control everyone in a crowd when emotions are high. But go ahead and throw the whole thing down the toilet because someone threw something.

I get that there should be accountability but to both criticise and threaten the cops then ask for their help at the same time is madness.

They criticize because they want better service. The same people aren't threatening cops.



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13 Jul 2016, 9:38 am

AspE wrote:
They aren't. Both BLM and the Dallas shooter were reactions to the news.

So they were both angry about the exact same thing in the news (which is so big in the news largely because of BLM in the first place), the shooting took place during a BLM protest, and was aimed at the exact group of people that BLM hate the most... but they totally have nothing to do with each other! Completely unrelated. Nobody should even consider that possibility. :roll:


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13 Jul 2016, 9:44 am

In my (I believe informed) opinion: There is still racial discrimination going on.

In my opinion: You can't blame cops, in general, for shooting these people; you have to blame the individual cop who did the shooting.

In my opinion: People have to experience things before they can truly represent that a thing occurred.

In my opinion: There is absolutely no excuse for anybody shooting cops--or shooting these people whom the cops shot.

In my opinion: Some people with Black Lives Matter go way overboard.

In my opinion: Many people in that organization do not condone violence

In my opinion: The leaders of this organization must stamp down strongly upon anybody who uses violence. Otherwise, the organization carries little credibility.



funeralxempire
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13 Jul 2016, 10:09 am

L_Holmes wrote:
AspE wrote:
They aren't. Both BLM and the Dallas shooter were reactions to the news.

So they were both angry about the exact same thing in the news (which is so big in the news largely because of BLM in the first place), the shooting took place during a BLM protest, and was aimed at the exact group of people that BLM hate the most... but they totally have nothing to do with each other! Completely unrelated. Nobody should even consider that possibility. :roll:


Wanting them to be accountable for their misdeeds isn't the same as 'hating them'. I know it's easier to pretend their grievances aren't legitimate when you oversimplify and distort them this way, but it's a strong indicator you don't have a clue what you're talking about.


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L_Holmes
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13 Jul 2016, 10:13 am

funeralxempire wrote:
L_Holmes wrote:
AspE wrote:
They aren't. Both BLM and the Dallas shooter were reactions to the news.

So they were both angry about the exact same thing in the news (which is so big in the news largely because of BLM in the first place), the shooting took place during a BLM protest, and was aimed at the exact group of people that BLM hate the most... but they totally have nothing to do with each other! Completely unrelated. Nobody should even consider that possibility. :roll:


Wanting them to be accountable for their misdeeds isn't the same as 'hating them'. I know it's easier to pretend their grievances aren't legitimate when you oversimplify and distort them this way, but it's a strong indicator you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Oh, I've seen plenty of hate towards the police from BLM. Some of them are reasonable and simply want justice, but many others are seething with rage and bitter hatred. Go read some of the things they say about police, and even white people in general.


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13 Jul 2016, 10:40 am

I don't care for the organization myself---but I understand why it exists.

If anybody within that organization deigns to commit violence to further their agenda, they should be arrested.

We have a fine tradition of peaceful protest--we should continue along this path.



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13 Jul 2016, 10:58 am

L_Holmes wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
L_Holmes wrote:
AspE wrote:
They aren't. Both BLM and the Dallas shooter were reactions to the news.

So they were both angry about the exact same thing in the news (which is so big in the news largely because of BLM in the first place), the shooting took place during a BLM protest, and was aimed at the exact group of people that BLM hate the most... but they totally have nothing to do with each other! Completely unrelated. Nobody should even consider that possibility. :roll:


Wanting them to be accountable for their misdeeds isn't the same as 'hating them'. I know it's easier to pretend their grievances aren't legitimate when you oversimplify and distort them this way, but it's a strong indicator you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Oh, I've seen plenty of hate towards the police from BLM. Some of them are reasonable and simply want justice, but many others are seething with rage and bitter hatred. Go read some of the things they say about police, and even white people in general.


You've already long since established that you happily judge your opponents by the very worst element you can possibly conflate them with and defend what you support based on the very best intentions you can possibly assign to them - and then respond with butthurt when this tactic is identified.

A few violent crazies acting out doesn't make all criticism of police inherently invalid, and further if the initial problem didn't exist the crazies wouldn't be so angry they feel murder is a valid reaction. I won't condone murder, but it's not occurring in a vacuum, it's a response to a problem that's been ongoing. I know you don't consider calling murder murder to be politically correct when it's committed by a criminal with a badge instead of other criminals, but that doesn't mean others don't see it as murder.

There's multiple problems though, and police murdering unarmed or surrendering civilians at much higher rates in some communities is only one of the issues. In many of these communities police make a point of engaging in revenue collecting (gotta get those dangerous jaywalkers), but turn a blind-eye to more serious crime (when something happens in south-central, nothing happens). If the community doesn't feel they can rely on the state to protect them, this gives legitimacy to gangbangers who will (just like the gangs that exist in other communities historically).

Some police forces have been much better than others at trying to engage their community and not treating them antagonistically, others have not. It's not fair that the ones with the biggest institutional problems ruin things for the others, just like it's not fair that the worst of the police ruin things for the others. But, as long as "good cops" lie to cover for bad cops and as long as police testimony is treated as inherently more trustworthy than anyone else's mistrust will continue to exist in these kinds of cases.

If they'd like some trust they'll need to earn it, but it might take awhile because they've got a lot of mistrust to displace first - and that mistrust is their own damn fault. It's sad that this mistrust exists, but blaming others for it won't go anything to resolve the underlaying problems or to increase trust.


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Jacoby
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13 Jul 2016, 11:13 am

A few bad apples doesn't make all criticism of the police valid either, there isn't a racist conspiracy to kill black men by the police. That narrative is fundamentally false and absolutely poisonous rhetoric. The Dallas PD who is led by a black police chief and has instituted the proactive reforms that these protesters wanted years ago is the one attacked by this assassin. Did he even know?

Chief David Brown has been an inspirational figure thru all this, he has exemplified true leadership in the midst of tragedy and crisis unlike our own President who took the opportunity to play politics.



We need practical solutions, we need people actually interested in bettering their communities instead of venting their rage and hatred towards the cops sometimes thru divisive or destructive means as if they can't make a difference.

Looks like some people heard the call

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/national/d ... own/nrxjG/



funeralxempire
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13 Jul 2016, 11:44 am

Jacoby wrote:
A few bad apples doesn't make all criticism of the police valid either, there isn't a racist conspiracy to kill black men by the police. That narrative is fundamentally false and absolutely poisonous rhetoric. The Dallas PD who is led by a black police chief and has instituted the proactive reforms that these protesters wanted years ago is the one attacked by this assassin.


Undeniably the Dallas PD have made an effort, which in my mind serves to further compound the tragedy. The departments that have bigger problems, and individuals who wish to slander the black community as a whole will use this as an excuse to insist that no problem exists and that no need for reforms exists. Worse, unless one is targeting specific individual police when they use violence, they may well just be opening a position for a thug in that police service, making the problem worse instead of better. Shooting random police doesn't bring justice to Jeronimo Yanez, Howie Lake II or Blane Salamoni no more than shooting a random pitbull does anything to keep the one that bit your child from biting another child.

As for 'playing politics', that's what politicians do. Obama isn't the only one using this to advance an agenda, reactionaries and police unions are using this as an excuse to delegitimize any and all criticism and to pretend that racism doesn't exist within many police forces and doesn't need to be addressed. Others are insisting that members of the black community that voice frustration regarding excessive reliance on use of force against their communities are "venting their rage and hatred towards the cops" and not "actually interested in bettering their communities" as though one can't be concerned about more than one problem.


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Jacoby
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13 Jul 2016, 12:12 pm

I would say playing politics at a memorial service to these fallen officers is in particular bad taste, the difference is that the president should be above all this partisan nonsense but he's not. You're implying I'm dismissing the legitimate grievances against the excessive use of force by the cops but I am not, how is it supposed to be addressed? When you try to have this conversation about what can actually be done all the sudden people are parched for ideas and are unwilling to look in the mirror, Chief Brown has implemented many reforms to address the concerns of these groups years ago and his call yesterday saying 'we're hiring' I think is especially poignant. Does venting rage at the police get us anywhere? A more coherent and focused message based on practical solutions(I don't know how many times I'm going to have say that phrase) will do a 100x the good than making offensive chants at the police there to protect you at these protests. Violence and violent rhetoric needs to be repudiated or else there will be more extremists like Micah Johnson to come out of the woodwork.

The reason people are saying they're not really interested in bettering their communities is because a lot of them aren't, a lot of them are simply white tourists to this whole thing and sympathize for partisan/ideological reasons. Look at our nation's inner cities many of which look more like bombed out third world warzones than somewhere in supposedly the richest most powerful nation in history. You can't talk about the issues with policing without talking about why they're policing to begin with and if you refuse to even start there then nothing realistically will ever be accomplished. I see it primarily an issue of poverty, the resulting culture of poverty, as well as our ill thought and disastrous War on Drugs. Again, Chief Brown spoke elegantly on that fact that we leave almost of all societies failures to to the police to pick up the slack and solve even tho that should never been part of their job to begin with. Reducing the unneeded interaction with people who have committed no crime but onto themselves will go a long way in solving this issue, ending prohibition and destroying the culture of gangs will go a long way in reducing the violence in their own communities and the fear that these officers have to work under because again they risk their lives for a $40k a year salary. Body cameras are great, I think every police department in this country should have them so we won't be stuck with the ambiguity of what might of happened and what the ideologues wish to exploit so know what happened.



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13 Jul 2016, 12:54 pm

Jacoby wrote:
I would say playing politics at a memorial service to these fallen officers is in particular bad taste, the difference is that the president should be above all this partisan nonsense but he's not. You're implying I'm dismissing the legitimate grievances against the excessive use of force by the cops but I am not, how is it supposed to be addressed? When you try to have this conversation about what can actually be done all the sudden people are parched for ideas and are unwilling to look in the mirror, Chief Brown has implemented many reforms to address the concerns of these groups years ago and his call yesterday saying 'we're hiring' I think is especially poignant. Does venting rage at the police get us anywhere? A more coherent and focused message based on practical solutions(I don't know how many times I'm going to have say that phrase) will do a 100x the good than making offensive chants at the police there to protect you at these protests. Violence and violent rhetoric needs to be repudiated or else there will be more extremists like Micah Johnson to come out of the woodwork.

The reason people are saying they're not really interested in bettering their communities is because a lot of them aren't, a lot of them are simply white tourists to this whole thing and sympathize for partisan/ideological reasons. Look at our nation's inner cities many of which look more like bombed out third world warzones than somewhere in supposedly the richest most powerful nation in history. You can't talk about the issues with policing without talking about why they're policing to begin with and if you refuse to even start there then nothing realistically will ever be accomplished. I see it primarily an issue of poverty, the resulting culture of poverty, as well as our ill thought and disastrous War on Drugs. Again, Chief Brown spoke elegantly on that fact that we leave almost of all societies failures to to the police to pick up the slack and solve even tho that should never been part of their job to begin with. Reducing the unneeded interaction with people who have committed no crime but onto themselves will go a long way in solving this issue, ending prohibition and destroying the culture of gangs will go a long way in reducing the violence in their own communities and the fear that these officers have to work under because again they risk their lives for a $40k a year salary. Body cameras are great, I think every police department in this country should have them so we won't be stuck with the ambiguity of what might of happened and what the ideologues wish to exploit so know what happened.


This is just a placeholder comment for now, I'll make a serious response later this evening. Overall though, I mostly agree with what you're saying here.


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AspE
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13 Jul 2016, 7:00 pm

Jacoby wrote:
...You can't talk about the issues with policing without talking about why they're policing to begin with and if you refuse to even start there then nothing realistically will ever be accomplished. I see it primarily an issue of poverty, the resulting culture of poverty, as well as our ill thought and disastrous War on Drugs. Again, Chief Brown spoke elegantly on that fact that we leave almost of all societies failures to to the police to pick up the slack and solve even tho that should never been part of their job to begin with. ....

It has nothing to do with the violent crime rate in the area in which these unjust police shootings occur. So you're completely wrong.