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Jacoby
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03 Jan 2017, 11:44 am

cathylynn wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
I've seen multiple quotes claiming that Trump being elected was literally worse than 9/11; if that isn't deranged, I don't know what is.

only 3000 people died on 9/11. when the ACA is repealed, 37,000 per year will die needlessly until republicans decide to stop "delaying" and replace. not to mention the death and displacement doing less about climate change will cause. that's literally worse.


Absolutely ridiculous and unsourced number, do you really believe that things like carbon trading is going to tangibly save lives?



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03 Jan 2017, 11:58 am

Jacoby wrote:
cathylynn wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
I've seen multiple quotes claiming that Trump being elected was literally worse than 9/11; if that isn't deranged, I don't know what is.

only 3000 people died on 9/11. when the ACA is repealed, 37,000 per year will die needlessly until republicans decide to stop "delaying" and replace. not to mention the death and displacement doing less about climate change will cause. that's literally worse.


Absolutely ridiculous and unsourced number, do you really believe that things like carbon trading is going to tangibly save lives?


I have to agree with that assessment. Even if you acknowledge that anthropogenic climate change is a real problem and will cause deaths, the climate system is not that reactive. Decisions either way will not show results for a long time.


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Jacoby
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03 Jan 2017, 12:20 pm

Even if the worst of the climate change nightmares come to pass and oceans rise a bunch, it's not something that is going to happen overnight or take people by surprise like a tsunami so they're not going to just die. I guess you can make the case that it's sort of like boiling a frog, we won't know until it's too late but I don't believe any single action or administration is going to save/doom us in this regard either way. I see climate as something beyond human control, it's just another form of man trying to transcend humanity and become gods as has been attempted throughout history.

I do not believe 37k will die from a repeal of parts of Obamacare, I think probably the most popular features will stay and along with additional reforms like being able to buy insurance across state lines which will improve on this system that has taken away choice for so many people. Nobody has any idea what reform looks like at this point but guarding Obamacare from any reform as if it is some sort of gold standard for healthcare is not one that is based in reality.



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03 Jan 2017, 1:06 pm

cathylynn wrote:
only 3000 people died on 9/11. when the ACA is repealed, 37,000 per year will die needlessly until republicans decide to stop "delaying" and replace. not to mention the death and displacement doing less about climate change will cause. that's literally worse.


And here I was thinking I was going to get called out for hyperbole, that no one would actually say that.


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03 Jan 2017, 1:15 pm

adifferentname wrote:
Indeed. If your political ideology isn't malleable, you're probably an ideologue (though, of course, one should not be overly-malleable when it comes to one's principles).


It's a balancing act, and frankly, exhausting. I'm still not where I'd like to be, some of the people in the rationality community are shocking graceful at accepting new information that conflicts with their beliefs, where as I still find myself more resistant than I'd like.


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cathylynn
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Adamantium
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03 Jan 2017, 1:35 pm

Dox47 wrote:
adifferentname wrote:
Indeed. If your political ideology isn't malleable, you're probably an ideologue (though, of course, one should not be overly-malleable when it comes to one's principles).


It's a balancing act, and frankly, exhausting. I'm still not where I'd like to be, some of the people in the rationality community are shocking graceful at accepting new information that conflicts with their beliefs, where as I still find myself more resistant than I'd like.


An admirable aspiration. I share your feelings in that area. I think it's very hard to accept information that conflicts with deeply held beliefs, but the goal of being as rational and as grounded in reality as possible is paramount.

cathylynn wrote:
http://obamacarefacts.com/facts-on-deaths-due-to-lack-of-health-insurance-in-us/


What is that meant to prove? I read there that if ACA goes into effect
Quote:
If all goes well we could see lower mortality rate, lower health care prices, and less healthcare spending from the economy as a whole.

Since ACA is already in effect and hasn't quite been all that was hoped, I don't think the stats at that link can be taken as indicative of what would happen if ACA were replaced by something else.

If for example, ACA were replaced by single payer universal coverage along the lines of the Canadian or UK NHS models, something very different would happen. If some parts of the ACA were retained and drug price negotiation were incorporated in the new legislation, something else again would happen. In no case does it seem probable that you would see an exact return to the status quo ante.


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cathylynn
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03 Jan 2017, 1:49 pm

let's not argue exact figures. the fact is lots of people will die without the ACA.



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03 Jan 2017, 4:20 pm

This is a very good essay on how Leftist statism destroys national character. Part of the current derangement of the left comes from their inability to even imagine how people can function if the government doesn't take care of them. This is the worldview of a child, or worse, of a slave -- "If massa don't feed and clothe me, how can I live?"

The Administrative State Has Changed Our Culture. Trump Can Help Reverse Course.

The overreaction to President-elect Donald Trump’s election—from campus “cry-ins” to Brandon Victor Dixon’s “Hamilton” rant—is more than just a left-wing tantrum. It displays a more fundamental development in American political culture.

In it, we behold the first fruits of the administrative state.

Although it was not clearly articulated in his campaign, Trump did represent an inchoate rebellion against what scholars call “the administrative state.”

This is the “fourth branch” of our government, the bureaucracy that began to form in the Progressive Era, had major growth spurts in the New Deal and Great Society years, and appeared to be near completion with the Affordable Care Act (Obamacare), Dodd-Frank, and record-breaking reams of new rules from the Federal Communications Commission, Environmental Protection Agency, and other agencies.

The Clintons were deeply immersed in what Trump called “the swamp” of this Beltway establishment. Their influence peddling was exactly the kind of “crony capitalism” that a bureaucratic state produces.

But more insidious than the obvious and old-fashioned corruption of the system is the way that it corrupts our culture and our national character. The post-election hysteria shows how a large segment of American society has become infantile, addicted to entitlements and identity politics, utterly dependent on the state, and incapable of imagining how to arrange their lives without it....

What continental statists like the philosopher G. W. F. Hegel saw as paradise, Tocqueville depicted as a stupefying hell. His dystopian vision is worth quoting at length:

"The sovereign power extends its arms over the entire society; it covers the surface of society with a network of small, complicated, minute and uniform rules, which the most original minds and the most vigorous souls cannot break through … ; it does not break wills, but it softens them, bends them and directs them; it rarely forces action, but it constantly opposes your acting; it does not destroy, it prevents birth; it does not tyrannize, it hinders, it represses, it enervates, it extinguishes, it stupefies, and finally it reduces each nation to being nothing more than a flock of timid and industrious animals, of which the government is the shepherd."


http://dailysignal.com/2017/01/03/the-a ... se-course/


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03 Jan 2017, 9:53 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Perhaps. But what if I share the same criticisms? What if I know said criticisms are legitimate, and not just an opinion I happen to like?


What I'm saying is that everyone has confirmation bias, we all want to believe things that confirm our beliefs, so we should be extra skeptical of information that feeds our biases. That's a big part of the reason I read a good six or eight news sites every day ranging from Salon to Breitbart, to see the same stories covered from opposite ideological positions and hopefully draw a clearer picture of what is really going on, rather than just absorbing the conclusions drawn for me by sites that more closely align to my own beliefs, like Reason.


Yes, that is true. But I also know that not every news site is believable.


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03 Jan 2017, 10:01 pm

cathylynn wrote:
http://obamacarefacts.com/facts-on-deaths-due-to-lack-of-health-insurance-in-us/


If the Republicans get their way, those numbers are going to go up without the ACA. I wonder if the Republicans can be appealed to in the name of decency. And if not that, if they can be shamed into doing the right thing.


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03 Jan 2017, 10:19 pm

Maybe, they believe in social Darwinism.


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03 Jan 2017, 11:16 pm

cathylynn wrote:
let's not argue exact figures. the fact is lots of people will die without the ACA.

No, actually numbers and details ARE important.


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03 Jan 2017, 11:20 pm

EzraS wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
I've seen multiple quotes claiming that Trump being elected was literally worse than 9/11; if that isn't deranged, I don't know what is.


That and basically equating it to the Holocaust.


They compared the Bush Administration to the Third Reich and/or the Sith so nothing about them regarding Trump surprises me.
Their tears nourish me.
:twisted:


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03 Jan 2017, 11:24 pm

Raptor wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
I've seen multiple quotes claiming that Trump being elected was literally worse than 9/11; if that isn't deranged, I don't know what is.


That and basically equating it to the Holocaust.


They compared the Bush Administration to the Third Reich and/or the Sith so nothing about them regarding Trump surprises me.
Their tears nourish me.
:twisted:


Interesting. I would normally compare someone holding a gun in a mask to a robber or terrorist. your fear does not nourish me.



cathylynn
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04 Jan 2017, 12:57 am

Raptor wrote:
cathylynn wrote:
let's not argue exact figures. the fact is lots of people will die without the ACA.

No, actually numbers and details ARE important.

let me get this straight. it's more important to you to know whether it's 20k or 40k than to prevent lots of people from dying. at any rate, it doesn't matter who you read, it's more than 9/11.