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Please stop with the excess hatred and anger of Trump

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TheSpectrum
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22 Jan 2017, 10:23 am

"Very likely" sounds like hysteria and speculation. Focus on things he said he WILL change and if they dissatisfy you work with your local politicians and change organisations to prevent those policies and orders.

You seriously can't punish people for things they have yet to do.


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jrjones9933
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22 Jan 2017, 10:24 am

TheSpectrum wrote:
"Very likely" sounds like hysteria and speculation. Focus on things he said he WILL change and if they dissatisfy you work with your local politicians and change organisations to prevent those policies and orders.

You seriously can't punish people for things they have yet to do.


You seriously can punish people when they lay out their diabolical plans, even before they put them into motion. Clever delaying tactic, though.


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TheSpectrum
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22 Jan 2017, 10:26 am

Why are you being so emotional?


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rats_and_cats
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22 Jan 2017, 10:26 am

jrjones9933 wrote:
rats_and_cats wrote:
jrjones9933 wrote:
rats_and_cats wrote:
Yeah, the extremism from liberals has pushed my views farther and farther to the right. I didn't really care about gun control until my peers started insulting gun owners, calling them crazed hillbillies. Most of my family own guns, so that was a below-the-belt hit.

So, hurt feelings justify limiting civil rights to people who won't criticize your family?


So, hurt feelings and loss of civil rights are the same thing? In 2017, everybody in America can vote, everybody in America has equal employment opportunities, everybody in America can get a driver's license unless there's a medical reason they can't, everybody in America can marry (within reason), everybody in America has access to free public education (the quality of which is debatable but there are things being done to change that). I don't want to limit any of that for anyone. And if you would actually listen to what Trump is saying, he doesn't want to either.


Trump has no functional relationship with the truth, but that doesn't make what he says meaningless. He courts people who openly want to limit the civil rights of my friends. He uses their exact language, too often to be plausibly coincidental. I suspect you disregard the Southern Poverty Law Center, or at least haven't read their analysis. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but a lot of Trump voters feel that way. I know this because they say SPLC is racist when I ask them about it.

I'm saying that Trump voters got in bed with a guy who has racists in bed with him on the other side, and didn't notice or didn't care. Your hurt feelings are directly giving him power to restrict civil rights, but at least you can be sure that your family will keep their civil rights, since they are obviously Real Americans.


I never said I thought my family was objectively better than other people or more American than other people. You put words in my mouth. I would argue further but you've shown that you are not one for rational debate.



jrjones9933
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22 Jan 2017, 10:30 am

rats_and_cats wrote:

I never said I thought my family was objectively better than other people or more American than other people. You put words in my mouth. I would argue further but you've shown that you are not one for rational debate.


Oh, for crying out loud. You didn't say Real Americans, and that's obvious to anyone who can read. Nevertheless, that idea is very widespread, important, and a racist dog whistle of the first order. If you reject the idea of Real Americans, I'd be delighted to hear a Trump voter disavow that whole notion in detail, with more than a glib denial.


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jrjones9933
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22 Jan 2017, 10:31 am

TheSpectrum wrote:
Why are you being so emotional?


I mad bro

Was the term emotional meant to sound like a bad thing, or am I reading too much into it?


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Last edited by jrjones9933 on 22 Jan 2017, 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

TheSpectrum
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22 Jan 2017, 10:32 am

You're correct, rats and cats did not, but you did. The insinuation is that you painted that family as Ameritrash for their advocacy of gun rights. That's exactly ye sort of thing they were trying to point out.


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rats_and_cats
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22 Jan 2017, 10:33 am

Froya wrote:
rats_and_cats wrote:

So, hurt feelings and loss of civil rights are the same thing? In 2017, everybody in America can vote, everybody in America has equal employment opportunities, everybody in America can get a driver's license unless there's a medical reason they can't, everybody in America can marry (within reason), everybody in America has access to free public education (the quality of which is debatable but there are things being done to change that). I don't want to limit any of that for anyone. And if you would actually listen to what Trump is saying, he doesn't want to either.

But you have elected a man who is very likely to change many of those things, and you are believing a person who lies all the time and taking what he says seriously.


[citation needed]

He's been in office for about as long as a celebrity marriage. He hasn't had a chance to lie about campaign promises. And there's no proof that I can see about him being a liar. Unless I missed something that you know about.



Froya
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22 Jan 2017, 10:35 am

TheSpectrum wrote:
You seriously can't punish people for things they have yet to do.
No, but how you would even take the risk I don't understand. How he is as a person, his character, it's not hidden. It's not a secret, it's very clear for everyone to see. You can't come and say afterwards if things go really bad, that you didn't know. That you believed him.



jrjones9933
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22 Jan 2017, 10:36 am

TheSpectrum wrote:
You're correct, rats and cats did not, but you did. The insinuation is that you painted that family as Ameritrash for their advocacy of gun rights. That's exactly ye sort of thing they were trying to point out.


I did not. I take as given that many Trump voters consider themselves the only Real Americans. Whether or not some specific family does so explicitly, implicitly, or not at all, matters less than that the repugnant, false idea of the existence of more and less real Americans is widespread and notable. Trump voters and supporters use the term constantly, with more or less awareness of the vile partition that they are creating.


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22 Jan 2017, 10:37 am

jrjones9933 wrote:
rats_and_cats wrote:

I never said I thought my family was objectively better than other people or more American than other people. You put words in my mouth. I would argue further but you've shown that you are not one for rational debate.


Oh, for crying out loud. You didn't say Real Americans, and that's obvious to anyone who can read. Nevertheless, that idea is very widespread, important, and a racist dog whistle of the first order. If you reject the idea of Real Americans, I'd be delighted to hear a Trump voter disavow that whole notion in detail, with more than a glib denial.


The only deeper meaning going on in my words is that I love my family. But you think I'm part of a hive mind so all you see is racism even though I never said anything about race. And you are proving my original point.



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22 Jan 2017, 10:38 am

jrjones9933 wrote:
Trump has no functional relationship with the truth, but that doesn't make what he says meaningless. He courts people who openly want to limit the civil rights of my friends. He uses their exact language, too often to be plausibly coincidental. I suspect you disregard the Southern Poverty Law Center, or at least haven't read their analysis. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but a lot of Trump voters feel that way. I know this because they say SPLC is racist when I ask them about it.

As of lately they've been showing very detached ideologue tendencies.

One of the best examples - they have Maajid Nawaz and Ayaan Hirsi Ali listed as anti-Muslim extremists.


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jrjones9933
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22 Jan 2017, 10:38 am

rats_and_cats wrote:
jrjones9933 wrote:
rats_and_cats wrote:

I never said I thought my family was objectively better than other people or more American than other people. You put words in my mouth. I would argue further but you've shown that you are not one for rational debate.


Oh, for crying out loud. You didn't say Real Americans, and that's obvious to anyone who can read. Nevertheless, that idea is very widespread, important, and a racist dog whistle of the first order. If you reject the idea of Real Americans, I'd be delighted to hear a Trump voter disavow that whole notion in detail, with more than a glib denial.


The only deeper meaning going on in my words is that I love my family. But you think I'm part of a hive mind so all you see is racism even though I never said anything about race. And you are proving my original point.


You said you know Trump voters, didn't you? None of my questions require more than that. If you did have a hive mind, that would be big news.


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22 Jan 2017, 10:43 am

rats_and_cats wrote:

And there's no proof that I can see about him being a liar. Unless I missed something that you know about.

There is much proof actually, but if you don't trust the media at all I can see how that will be hard to believe.



jrjones9933
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22 Jan 2017, 10:44 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
jrjones9933 wrote:
Trump has no functional relationship with the truth, but that doesn't make what he says meaningless. He courts people who openly want to limit the civil rights of my friends. He uses their exact language, too often to be plausibly coincidental. I suspect you disregard the Southern Poverty Law Center, or at least haven't read their analysis. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but a lot of Trump voters feel that way. I know this because they say SPLC is racist when I ask them about it.

As of lately they've been showing very detached ideologue tendencies.

One of the best examples - they have Maajid Nawaz and Ayaan Hirsi Ali listed as anti-Muslim extremists.


I've been interested in Ayaan Hirsi Ali for some time. I think that the constant death threats sent her off the rails at one point, and I personally am inclined to give her a pass. I can disagree with SPLC about that, and still get a lot of good information from their work.

They are explicitly advocating for a position. I think that requires an ideological POV. Regarding detachment... I don't really know; I haven't heard that subtle a critique from Trump supporters. I'll keep an eye out for it, though, and will write them a letter if I see something that raises my concerns on that level. We don't get to dismiss everything someone says because it turns out in the end that the facts could be read differently, or even if they are just flat wrong about a couple of things. It happens.

Real American is a racist dog whistle, nonwithstanding.


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22 Jan 2017, 10:45 am