Know your Enemy: Steve Bannon by Amy Goodman

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adifferentname
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02 Feb 2017, 9:57 am

Adamantium wrote:
adifferentname wrote:
So it boils down to your personal moral perceptions of what constitutes a "good" person.

That's pretty much how it works.

I think trolls are a cancer in liberal democracy. You cannot engage in meaningful political dialog with trolls. They destroy every public sphere they are permitted to operate in. Fine in stand up comedy, toxic to civil discourse.


The alt-right has been labelled "political punk rock", which I think is rather apt. They're loud, they're crass, they're disruptive and they're effective. You don't have to like them, I'm certainly not a fan, but I disagree that they can't be engaged with meaningfully. Trolling is a behaviour, not a character archetype.

Quote:
You accuse me of demonizing Bannon for linking to a couple of left wing sources about Bannon. This is more of your habitual hyperbole. It doesn't wash. Every source that isn't right wing holds the same view of what he has done at Breitbart.


I accuse you of demonising Bannon because you presented a propaganda video which does precisely that, and which you are arguing in defence of. You are literally portraying him as "wicked and threatening", so no, it's not hyperbolic to call it what it is. That also calls into question your judgement of what you consider "habitual" behaviour in myself.

If you can't argue the message, keep your guns holstered. I don't appreciate the ad hominem.

Quote:
I understand that from your extreme partisan perspective you disagree


The fact that you believe my perspective can be described as "extreme" or "partisan" is proof-positive that you don't understand it at all. Which of Bannon's beliefs, policies or opinions do I personally hold?

By contrast, you presented arguments solely from the "left" about a figure on the "right"; arguments which relied on implication of guilt via association, presumably because they can't actually point to any wrongdoing by the man himself.

My unwillingness to buy what you're selling does not make me an advocate for Steve Bannon, nor does it make me "right wing".

Quote:
and you are certainly entitled to your personal moral perceptions of what constitutes a good person. Your views don't invalidate the perceptions of everyone else or everyone who doesn't agree with you.


Except I'm not the one asking you to accept my definition of what constitutes a good person and, by extension, who is a bad person, simply on my say so.

Quote:
I'm not interested in being told my brain is rotting


I was the first to chastise Jacoby for doing so.

Quote:
that trolls are people too


Trolls are also voters.

Quote:
or that white nationalists are wonderful people who have been misunderstood.


Because God forbid that should turn out to be even slightly close to being true!

Quote:
I am capable of drawing my own conclusions about the reliability of media sources, and I can evaluate the behavior of trolls and racists without assistance.


Excellent. So what's the point of this thread? We've established that you have a partisan position, that you're not open to opposing viewpoints and that you have a low threshold of tolerance for anyone who challenges your opinions on this matter - going as far as calling my views an "extreme partisan perspective" and accusing me of being hyperbolic, as if either ad hominem would constitute a valid argument even if true.

Quote:
I am not interested in having a conversation which consists of ideological battle over every point of political orientation or perspective, I am interested in understanding Bannon. I welcome any links or quotes about him from any source, but won't be engaging in more pointless "my perspective is right, so yours is wrong" battles or point scoring, name calling time wasting polemics.


I've provided you with quotes from Ben Shapiro, and a link to a piece by Rabbi Shmuley Boteach, both of whom are pertinent to the discussion. One on the grounds that he's the subject of anti-semitic sentiment that was attributed by association to Bannon in your post, the other on the grounds that he's a prominent Rabbi who directly addressed the problem of bias shown by the ADL and whose expressed viewpoints were, like my own, entirely non-partisan. One might even go as far as to suggest anti-partisan.

You've elected to ignore those quotes about him and focus your response on me personally. As such, if you're genuinely interested in understanding who Steve Bannon is, I suggest you climb down from atop Mount Morality and invite you to engage with perspectives that don't match your own.



Last edited by adifferentname on 02 Feb 2017, 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

adifferentname
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02 Feb 2017, 9:59 am

feral botanist wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
adifferentname wrote:
feral botanist wrote:
adifferentname wrote:

Whether the intel is accurate or fair is certainly up for debate, but Trump cannot be criticised for selection criteria dating back to 2015.



:lol: :lol: :lol:

Thats the best rational you can supply?
"Obama selected the countries"

Lets run with this.
Obama did...
ACA
Supported LGBTQ rights
Proposed Merick Garland for SCOTUS
Stopped DAPL

Shall I continue.


To make a series of irrelevant points? Why change the habit of a lifetime?


This guy doesn't seem like he's very serious about discussing anything.



You two are awesome!

I find myself actually laughing out loud when I read your posts.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance


Any more irrelevancies to share, or are you done?



Adamantium
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02 Feb 2017, 10:24 am

adifferentname wrote:
Adamantium wrote:
adifferentname wrote:
So it boils down to your personal moral perceptions of what constitutes a "good" person.

That's pretty much how it works.

I think trolls are a cancer in liberal democracy. You cannot engage in meaningful political dialog with trolls. They destroy every public sphere they are permitted to operate in. Fine in stand up comedy, toxic to civil discourse.


The alt-right has been labelled "political punk rock", which I think is rather apt. They're loud, they're crass, they're disruptive and they're effective. You don't have to like them, I'm certainly not a fan, but I disagree that they can't be engaged with meaningfully. Trolling is a behaviour, not a character archetype.

Quote:
You accuse me of demonizing Bannon for linking to a couple of left wing sources about Bannon. This is more of your habitual hyperbole. It doesn't wash. Every source that isn't right wing holds the same view of what he has done at Breitbart.


I accuse you of demonising Bannon because you presented a propaganda video which does precisely that, and which you are arguing in defence of. You are literally portraying him as "wicked and threatening", so no, it's not hyperbolic to call it what it is. That also calls into question your judgement of what you consider "habitual" behaviour in myself.

If you can't argue the message, keep your guns holstered. I don't appreciate the ad hominem.

Quote:
I understand that from your extreme partisan perspective you disagree


The fact that you believe my perspective can be described as "extreme" or "partisan" is proof-positive that you don't understand it at all. Which of Bannon's beliefs, policies or opinions do I personally hold?

By contrast, you presented arguments solely from the "left" about a figure on the "right"; arguments which relied on implication of guilt via association, presumably because they can't actually point to any wrongdoing by the man himself.

My unwillingness to buy what you're selling does not make me an advocate for Steve Bannon, nor does it make me "right wing".

Quote:
and you are certainly entitled to your personal moral perceptions of what constitutes a good person. Your views don't invalidate the perceptions of everyone else or everyone who doesn't agree with you.


Except I'm not the one asking you to accept my definition of what constitutes a good person and, by extension, who is a bad person, simply on my say so.

Quote:
I'm not interested in being told my brain is rotting


I was the first to chastise Jacoby for doing so.

Quote:
that trolls are people too


Trolls are also voters.

Quote:
or that white nationalists are wonderful people who have been misunderstood.


Because God forbid that should turn out to be even slightly close to being true!

Quote:
I am capable of drawing my own conclusions about the reliability of media sources, and I can evaluate the behavior of trolls and racists without assistance.


Excellent. So what's the point of this thread? We've established that you have a partisan position, that you're not open to opposing viewpoints and that you have a low threshold of tolerance for anyone who challenges your opinions on this matter - going as far as calling my views an "extreme partisan perspective" and accusing me of being hyperbolic, as if either ad hominem would constitute a valid argument even if true.

Quote:
I am not interested in having a conversation which consists of ideological battle over every point of political orientation or perspective, I am interested in understanding Bannon. I welcome any links or quotes about him from any source, but won't be engaging in more pointless "my perspective is right, so yours is wrong" battles or point scoring, name calling time wasting polemics.


I've provided you with quotes from Ben Shapiro, and a link to a piece by Rabbi Shmuley Boteach, both of whom are pertinent to the discussion. One on the grounds that he's the subject of anti-semitic sentiment that was attributed by association to Bannon in your post, the other on the grounds that he's a prominent Rabbi who directly addressed the problem of bias shown by the ADL and whose expressed viewpoints were, like my own, entirely non-partisan. One might even go as far as to suggest anti-partisan.

You've elected to ignore those quotes about him and focus your response on me personally. As such, if you're genuinely interested in understanding who Steve Bannon is, I suggest you climb down from atop Mount Morality and invite you to engage with perspectives that don't match your own.


My sincere apologies, adifferentname -- shortly after starting that response I had to do something else, and when I came back, I had conflated your comment and one from Jacoby. The comments about habitual behavior, etc. are a reflection of that confusion.

Please accept my apologies.

I will try again later when I can give it the time it deserves.


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adifferentname
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02 Feb 2017, 10:27 am

Adamantium wrote:
My sincere apologies, adifferentname -- shortly after starting that response I had to do something else, and when I came back, I had conflated your comment and one from Jacoby. The comments about habitual behavior, etc. are a reflection of that confusion.

Please accept my apologies.

I will try again later when I can give it the time it deserves.


Very much accepted. Honestly, I didn't have you pegged as being that vitriolic, so I was somewhat taken aback by it.

Look forward to reading your response.



Kraichgauer
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02 Feb 2017, 4:04 pm

Sure, certain Muslim groups are clearly our enemies, and are a threat to our nation. But shouldn't the same be said about Alt Right white nationalists? They're clearly enemies of the values that represent America. And that would clearly include Steve Bannon, who as former editor of Breitbart, had facilitated those fanatics, and was very likely one of them.


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Lukeda420
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02 Feb 2017, 9:10 pm

Nancy Pelosi called Bannon a white supremacist:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/nancy-pelos ... premacist/

Saying otherwise is just another "alternative fact" or as it's correctly known, a lie.



feral botanist
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02 Feb 2017, 9:13 pm

EzraS wrote:
feral botanist wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
adifferentname wrote:
feral botanist wrote:
adifferentname wrote:

Whether the intel is accurate or fair is certainly up for debate, but Trump cannot be criticised for selection criteria dating back to 2015.



:lol: :lol: :lol:

Thats the best rational you can supply?
"Obama selected the countries"

Lets run with this.
Obama did...
ACA
Supported LGBTQ rights
Proposed Merick Garland for SCOTUS
Stopped DAPL

Shall I continue.


To make a series of irrelevant points? Why change the habit of a lifetime?


This guy doesn't seem like he's very serious about discussing anything.



You two are awesome!

I find myself actually laughing out loud when I read your posts.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance


All that posturing shot down by posting a Wikipedia link.


Really? I did not think they would even read it, so I am surprised you thought it had an effect on them.



Lukeda420
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02 Feb 2017, 9:16 pm

"Exclusive: Trump to focus counter-extremism program solely on Islam - sources"

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-t ... SKBN15G5VO

The program, "Countering Violent Extremism," or CVE, would be changed to "Countering Islamic Extremism" or "Countering Radical Islamic Extremism," the sources said, and would no longer target groups such as white supremacists who have also carried out bombings and shootings in the United States.

"Hoda Hawa, director of policy for the Muslim Public Affairs Council, said she was told last week by people within DHS that there was a push to refocus the CVE effort from tackling all violent ideology to only Islamist extremism.

"That is concerning for us because they are targeting a faith group and casting it under a net of suspicion," she said."



EzraS
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02 Feb 2017, 9:25 pm

feral botanist wrote:
EzraS wrote:
feral botanist wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
adifferentname wrote:
feral botanist wrote:
adifferentname wrote:

Whether the intel is accurate or fair is certainly up for debate, but Trump cannot be criticised for selection criteria dating back to 2015.



:lol: :lol: :lol:

Thats the best rational you can supply?
"Obama selected the countries"

Lets run with this.
Obama did...
ACA
Supported LGBTQ rights
Proposed Merick Garland for SCOTUS
Stopped DAPL

Shall I continue.


To make a series of irrelevant points? Why change the habit of a lifetime?


This guy doesn't seem like he's very serious about discussing anything.



You two are awesome!

I find myself actually laughing out loud when I read your posts.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance


All that posturing shot down by posting a Wikipedia link.


Really? I did not think they would even read it, so I am surprised you thought it had an effect on them.


Apparently my statement went over your head.



feral botanist
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02 Feb 2017, 9:39 pm

EzraS wrote:
feral botanist wrote:
EzraS wrote:
feral botanist wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
adifferentname wrote:
feral botanist wrote:
adifferentname wrote:

Whether the intel is accurate or fair is certainly up for debate, but Trump cannot be criticised for selection criteria dating back to 2015.



:lol: :lol: :lol:

Thats the best rational you can supply?
"Obama selected the countries"

Lets run with this.
Obama did...
ACA
Supported LGBTQ rights
Proposed Merick Garland for SCOTUS
Stopped DAPL

Shall I continue.


To make a series of irrelevant points? Why change the habit of a lifetime?


This guy doesn't seem like he's very serious about discussing anything.



You two are awesome!

I find myself actually laughing out loud when I read your posts.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance


All that posturing shot down by posting a Wikipedia link.


Really? I did not think they would even read it, so I am surprised you thought it had an effect on them.


Apparently my statement went over your head.



:lol:
Or under it, you keep this up and I will have start treating you like them.



feral botanist
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02 Feb 2017, 9:43 pm

The alt-right is about as punk rock as is trump.

Punk is about being antiestablishment.

You guy have DC, contradictary terms.



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02 Feb 2017, 9:45 pm

Lukeda420 wrote:
"Exclusive: Trump to focus counter-extremism program solely on Islam - sources"

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-t ... SKBN15G5VO

The program, "Countering Violent Extremism," or CVE, would be changed to "Countering Islamic Extremism" or "Countering Radical Islamic Extremism," the sources said, and would no longer target groups such as white supremacists who have also carried out bombings and shootings in the United States.

"Hoda Hawa, director of policy for the Muslim Public Affairs Council, said she was told last week by people within DHS that there was a push to refocus the CVE effort from tackling all violent ideology to only Islamist extremism.

"That is concerning for us because they are targeting a faith group and casting it under a net of suspicion," she said."


Trump's looking out for his Alt Right white nationalist friends. Seriously, what else could it be?


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Lukeda420
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02 Feb 2017, 9:47 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Lukeda420 wrote:
"Exclusive: Trump to focus counter-extremism program solely on Islam - sources"

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-t ... SKBN15G5VO

The program, "Countering Violent Extremism," or CVE, would be changed to "Countering Islamic Extremism" or "Countering Radical Islamic Extremism," the sources said, and would no longer target groups such as white supremacists who have also carried out bombings and shootings in the United States.

"Hoda Hawa, director of policy for the Muslim Public Affairs Council, said she was told last week by people within DHS that there was a push to refocus the CVE effort from tackling all violent ideology to only Islamist extremism.

"That is concerning for us because they are targeting a faith group and casting it under a net of suspicion," she said."


Trump's looking out for his Alt Right white nationalist friends. Seriously, what else could it be?


Just wait someone will be by in a moment to try and find an answer to excuse this too. :roll:



feral botanist
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02 Feb 2017, 9:58 pm

Lukeda420 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Lukeda420 wrote:
"Exclusive: Trump to focus counter-extremism program solely on Islam - sources"

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-t ... SKBN15G5VO

The program, "Countering Violent Extremism," or CVE, would be changed to "Countering Islamic Extremism" or "Countering Radical Islamic Extremism," the sources said, and would no longer target groups such as white supremacists who have also carried out bombings and shootings in the United States.

"Hoda Hawa, director of policy for the Muslim Public Affairs Council, said she was told last week by people within DHS that there was a push to refocus the CVE effort from tackling all violent ideology to only Islamist extremism.

"That is concerning for us because they are targeting a faith group and casting it under a net of suspicion," she said."


Trump's looking out for his Alt Right white nationalist friends. Seriously, what else could it be?


Just wait someone will be by in a moment to try and find an answer to excuse this too. :roll:



:lol:
No they will not, they will just acusse liberals of doing it.

:lol:



Lukeda420
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02 Feb 2017, 10:00 pm

feral botanist wrote:
Lukeda420 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Lukeda420 wrote:
"Exclusive: Trump to focus counter-extremism program solely on Islam - sources"

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-t ... SKBN15G5VO

The program, "Countering Violent Extremism," or CVE, would be changed to "Countering Islamic Extremism" or "Countering Radical Islamic Extremism," the sources said, and would no longer target groups such as white supremacists who have also carried out bombings and shootings in the United States.

"Hoda Hawa, director of policy for the Muslim Public Affairs Council, said she was told last week by people within DHS that there was a push to refocus the CVE effort from tackling all violent ideology to only Islamist extremism.

"That is concerning for us because they are targeting a faith group and casting it under a net of suspicion," she said."


Trump's looking out for his Alt Right white nationalist friends. Seriously, what else could it be?


Just wait someone will be by in a moment to try and find an answer to excuse this too. :roll:



:lol:
No they will not, they will just acusse liberals of doing it.

:lol:


Maybe. They're other favorite excuse seems to be "but Obama was already going to do that" :lol:



feral botanist
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02 Feb 2017, 10:43 pm

That is the response I recieved from adifferentname when I adsked why the musilm ban did not include the countries where the 9/11 terrorist can from.

I actually laugh out loud when I read that.
:lol: