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Ignotum
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13 Feb 2017, 9:17 pm

Why Hello! I felt as if I should note that this is my first post to this site, although I have known about and have been perusing it for quite a while now. Anyhow, the question I wanted to ask today is one of morality (any moderators feel free to put this thread elsewhere if you feel it doesn't belong) as I find the subject quite interesting.

To put it simply, what is the virtue that you respect most in yourself and in others? Any trait that you feel if everyone had in abundance the world would be a far better place for it. Anything goes as long as you provide your reasoning along with it.

Now, after a fair bit of deliberation, I feel that my favorite virtue is open-mindedness, to save your judgement upon someone until more knowledge is obtained, and to respect other points of view even though you may disagree fervently with them. To judge a person based on reason and their own actions, rather than spreading hatred based on the mostly arbitrary labels we humans attach to ourselves so often. These abilities are something I see so little in our modern society (the 2016 presidential election which sickened me so is proof of this), and indeed throughout all of history, as genocide and war and petty rivalry have repeated themselves so often primarily due to stubbornness, pride, ignorance, and stigmatization. All the sworn enemy of acceptance and open-mindedness. Welp, time to get off the soap box for now, but I hope any who read have enjoyed this little spiel and I shall eagerly await any other thoughts and opinions!



sonicallysensitive
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13 Feb 2017, 9:20 pm

Honesty. To oneself and to others.

(However, one should, I feel, only give advice when it is asked for. There's honesty and there's spouting an opinion simply for the sake of hearing one's own voice).

PS good topic.



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13 Feb 2017, 9:27 pm

"And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity."
~~ 1 Corinthians 13:13

Additionally from 1 Corinthians 13:

"If I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. [2] And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. [3] And if I should distribute all my goods to feed the poor, and if I should deliver my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. [4] Charity is patient, is kind: charity envies not, deals not perversely; is not puffed up; [5] Is not ambitious, seeks not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinks no evil;

"[6] Rejoices not in iniquity, but rejoices with the truth; [7] Bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. [8] Charity never falls away: whether prophecies shall be made void, or tongues shall cease, or knowledge shall be destroyed. [9] For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. [10] But when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away."



Ignotum
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13 Feb 2017, 9:39 pm

sonicallysensitive wrote:
Honesty. To oneself and to others.

(However, one should, I feel, only give advice when it is asked for. There's honesty and there's spouting an opinion simply for the sake of hearing one's own voice).

PS good topic.


Why Thanks! And I definitely agree with you, I'm for truthfulness in all situations, even if it hurts. A close runner-up for me personally though would be honor, which I define as doing what is right simply because you feel it is right, with no external motivations involved.

P.S. I hope I did that dang quote thing right!



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13 Feb 2017, 9:39 pm

I'd say either altruism or honesty. Can't decide.


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Ignotum
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13 Feb 2017, 9:50 pm

the_phoenix wrote:
"And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity."
~~ 1 Corinthians 13:13

Additionally from 1 Corinthians 13:

"If I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. [2] And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. [3] And if I should distribute all my goods to feed the poor, and if I should deliver my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. [4] Charity is patient, is kind: charity envies not, deals not perversely; is not puffed up; [5] Is not ambitious, seeks not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinks no evil;

"[6] Rejoices not in iniquity, but rejoices with the truth; [7] Bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. [8] Charity never falls away: whether prophecies shall be made void, or tongues shall cease, or knowledge shall be destroyed. [9] For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. [10] But when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away."


Interesting, I must admit that I've never read the bible or its passages, even though I live in the deep south (I hope you do not find that fact offensive, that was not my intent at least). But a true and interesting notion, that to give upon yourself for the good of others is of more import than anything else that could be imagined or hoped for. There is inherent honor in sacrifice of any kind, I feel.



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13 Feb 2017, 9:57 pm

Hi and welcome!

Giving everything up to God is the virtue that I think would save us all. I'm not picky about which God but I do get nervous about people interpreting God to their own liking. That's war.

The basic idea is the burnt offering. We keep nothing of a burnt offering. No strings attached etc.

If I give a gift, it should not be my own favourite kind of thing - my aunt gave vases to everybody. That's not a sin but it is a string attached. Or if I give somebody a dollar, I should not feel good or virtuous about it. Any act of kindness should not have ego attached. Surrender it all to God.

Did that make any sense?



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13 Feb 2017, 10:15 pm

Claradoon wrote:
Hi and welcome!

Giving everything up to God is the virtue that I think would save us all. I'm not picky about which God but I do get nervous about people interpreting God to their own liking. That's war.

The basic idea is the burnt offering. We keep nothing of a burnt offering. No strings attached etc.

If I give a gift, it should not be my own favourite kind of thing - my aunt gave vases to everybody. That's not a sin but it is a string attached. Or if I give somebody a dollar, I should not feel good or virtuous about it. Any act of kindness should not have ego attached. Surrender it all to God.

Did that make any sense?


No I certainly do understand, in a way at least. Over-Ego seems to be an all too common trait among humans, and I try my best to remind myself of this and carefully monitor my own actions and thoughts for it, and simply be happy while constantly trying to learn and improve upon myself. I did not mean to seem egotistical if that is what you meant however, and if I did than I am sorry (I'm still quite daft at many social situations however so I apologize if my actions are thoroughly odd or if I misjudge someone's meaning!). But anyhow I certainly agree, and very much appreciate your more liberal view of god in the first paragraph as I share similar beliefs.



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14 Feb 2017, 3:00 am

No you don't seem at all egotistical! I'm very sorry if it sounded that way. No, what I mean was some of my relatives who want to be the centre of attention and the star of the show when somebody opens their gift. They want all the compliments about the gift to be compliments about themselves.

Well, of course, we don't want our gift to be a dud in the eyes of the family. But some people (my uncle, actually) glows when somebody opens his gift. He figures praise of the gift is for himself. It's not a sin, but it's a string attached.

It just occurred to me that my whole family is like that. When somebody's coming to visit, we rush around getting out their gifts (from over the years) and put them out. Talk about attached.



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14 Feb 2017, 10:16 am

Ignotum wrote:
Now, after a fair bit of deliberation, I feel that my favorite virtue is open-mindedness, to save your judgement upon someone until more knowledge is obtained, and to respect other points of view even though you may disagree fervently with them. To judge a person based on reason and their own actions, rather than spreading hatred based on the mostly arbitrary labels we humans attach to ourselves so often. These abilities are something I see so little in our modern society (the 2016 presidential election which sickened me so is proof of this), and indeed throughout all of history, as genocide and war and petty rivalry have repeated themselves so often primarily due to stubbornness, pride, ignorance, and stigmatization. All the sworn enemy of acceptance and open-mindedness.


YES
I'm so happy to find another who can make the same observation! :heart: I would normally answer "humility" as I feel it's the driving force behind open-mindedness and altruism... Being conscious of one's insignificance in this universe and the extent of one's own ignorance I feel builds altruism, empathy, and openmindedness. Let me digress for a moment to talk about the latter:

In psychology there's a peculiar condition I've always held in immense fascination... Which sadly remains unknown to most, called the "Overview Effect". It's a condition that affects astronauts when they look at the earth from space... It causes them to have a sort of epiphany or cognitive shift as they become conscious of their own personal insignificance, and that of the earth in this vast universe.. I could continue describing, but I'll leave that up to Wikipedia:

It refers to the experience of seeing firsthand the reality of the Earth in space, which is immediately understood to be a tiny, fragile ball of life, "hanging in the void", shielded and nourished by a paper-thin atmosphere. From space, national boundaries vanish, the conflicts that divide people become less important, and the need to create a planetary society with the united will to protect this "pale blue dot" becomes both obvious and imperative.

I think that pertains neatly to what you said about open mindedness, which again is a subordinate of basic humility:

We have an awful tendency to divide ourselves over arbitrary and insignificant labels... The purpose of which is to dehumanize, and divide people against one another: To make violence, hatred, and malice seem acceptable. After all it's not a person that I'm contrary to but a democrat or a republican or a communist or whatever other bollocks you use to justify your aggression against somebody else. We fail to consider ourselves "human first, [ideology/religion/nationality/creed] second" and rather than thinking of one of your dissenters as "normal, decent human being just like me who's also just trying to cope in the game of life and has their own thoughts, feelings, struggles, and emotions who just so happens to have republican views" we instead use the label "republican" and suddenly that makes insults, hatred, and stereotypes possible... and usually these labels we slap onto people to turn them into just that, labels instead of people, and are so ambiguous and broad they encompass any number of traits we detest and fail to hold any concrete meaning, except to say "something that is not desirable"

One of my all time favorite essays is by George Orwell, called "Politics and the English language" and discusses use of political language to make violence and hatred seem acceptable... One example listed was the word "fascist". By Orwell's time (and especially today!!) the word had essentially lost its meaning and became a cheap insult. You didn't have to agree with any of the precepts of Italian Fascism to be labeled one, and quite frankly the word had no real definition whatsoever, so it could be arbitrarily applied to anybody who disagreed with you, and they couldn't defend themselves from the accusation.... because the word had no definition: It was just a cheap insult, the same weight and meaning as calling somebody a "moron" or stupidhead.... and was often used to justify violence and hatred of others. The same was also true of "communist" during the McCarthy era, and the buzzwords of today. The meaning of the buzzwords/label you attach to somebody has more to do with what the person who uses them feels that label describes (which is often far from reality) than what it actually means...

You see it all the time unfortunately... even in this political forum :/ Especially during the last election. Whether it was "socialist", "fascist", "Trump supporter", "liberal", "conservative", and so on....

I've always thought the reason behind somebody's choice spoke more volume to their character than the choice itself: With the exception of genuine extremist opinions we ought to learn to disassociate our opinions with ourselves, and treat them kinda like... a box of post-it notes you carry around, with different ideas written on each, which we're free and willing to exchange, discard, and discuss at any point should new information come about rather than a fundamental part of who we are.

So I agree with you 1,000% there that labels which divide us and make men hate one another ought to be discarded, and we should learn to think of us all as human beings first and foremost :) That simple change in the way we analyze things I feel would go so far, and massively help with making this world a better place to live.



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14 Feb 2017, 10:56 am

It's hard to pick just one because they often need to have others accompanying them in order to shine.

Open-mindedness is a very good pick though, I can't see any immediately obvious negatives to it by itself.

As for the "Overview Effect", well, if that's the effect it has on people, then it is a very good thing that space tourism for the extremely wealthy is becoming a thing! :)



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14 Feb 2017, 11:05 am

Humility in the face of situations where humility might not be called for.

Strength amid humility.

Altruism amid humility.

Adherence to truth, despite conditions which don't favor truth.

Non-dogmatism in philosophical matters; an ability to know that each person's perception could be different based upon life experience.

Love of logic, but recognition that logic isn't the "be-all, end-all."



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14 Feb 2017, 2:46 pm

I value compassion and the willingness to examine ones opinions and change them presented with evidence. A sad fact that most people lack the second part. Too set in their ways lol.


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14 Feb 2017, 9:22 pm

lidsmichelle wrote:
I value compassion and the willingness to examine ones opinions and change them presented with evidence. A sad fact that most people lack the second part. Too set in their ways lol.


Pretty much exactly what I feel too!



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14 Feb 2017, 10:06 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Humility in the face of situations where humility might not be called for.

Strength amid humility.

Altruism amid humility.

Adherence to truth, despite conditions which don't favor truth.

Non-dogmatism in philosophical matters; an ability to know that each person's perception could be different based upon life experience.

Love of logic, but recognition that logic isn't the "be-all, end-all."


Humility is indeed noble, not only in itself but for it is the gateway for so many other virtues to come. Also, if someone can not even recognize their own faults and mistakes, then how can they ever hope to learn and grow as a person? It is indeed something that people should strive for.

As for your statement on truth, I agree wholeheartedly. Truth is one of the only constants in this world, and I try to uphold in every possible situation. Also, something to note is that I view blatant hyperbole, to understate or overstate something in order to further your own views or in an argument, as something to try and stay away from as much as possible, even though it seems so endemic in today's society.

As for your next statement, I also agree with your adherence to open-mindedness. It is best to never judge someone based on their interests or even their own personal views, as, somewhat like you said, I think those things in reality are more so based on someone's experiences rather than a choice they could have ever made. I know that I myself am guilty of judging someone unfairly based on those things in the past, but I am trying my best to learn from my faults, as are we all.

As for the last statement, I believe it is important for someone to find a careful balance between reason and emotion. To completely rely on one is to be a fool and lead to hypocrisy, to completely rely on the other is to be inhuman.



Last edited by Ignotum on 14 Feb 2017, 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ignotum
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14 Feb 2017, 10:21 pm

Claradoon wrote:
No you don't seem at all egotistical! I'm very sorry if it sounded that way. No, what I mean was some of my relatives who want to be the centre of attention and the star of the show when somebody opens their gift. They want all the compliments about the gift to be compliments about themselves.

Well, of course, we don't want our gift to be a dud in the eyes of the family. But some people (my uncle, actually) glows when somebody opens his gift. He figures praise of the gift is for himself. It's not a sin, but it's a string attached.

It just occurred to me that my whole family is like that. When somebody's coming to visit, we rush around getting out their gifts (from over the years) and put them out. Talk about attached.


Ah, I can realize now that after a bit of reflection that I definitely misread that, sorry, as I said I'm definitely still learning when it comes to social situations.

I can see why you would be somewhat distressed by those actions from your family however, I can completely understand actually. You can see the fault within them, and yet you would rightly feel bad about speaking out about it. The same thing happens practically everyday with my mother, and unfortunately I'm not so good about that "not speaking out" bit :lol: but I'm learning. When it comes to family, however, I've learned that you've just got to love that person who they are, even if there is some major flaws with said person.

P.S.: I wasn't referring to your situation in that last statement, more so just an insight about my own. Why it seems as if I hogged all the attention for myself! How prudish of me :lol: